Pastor Judah Smith Preaching on Matthew 11:28-30 “The Perfect Fit”
One of the things “word of faith” and “prosperity churches” like to do is tailor messages for the congregation from one verse in the Bible and spend 1 hour telling stories (mostly) about themselves. This message was no different. The following verse was used:
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30
Pastor Judah says we all have a yoke made for us by Jesus, and we are to put it on. It is our calling and it is “The Perfect Fit”. Pastor Judah says his “perfect fit” is preaching. He is very eloquent and able to tell stories very well. Unfortunately he strayed from the message and talked about his wife, traveling to Australia for ministry, and he told the story about how he was told he was a “genius” communicator by a doctor at the age of 14 (or so).
Basically, he said at 14 he understood his yoke was to be a pastor because it is easy to him (he said he is good at talking). Unfortunately he forgets that people God used to communicate were not like him. Moses was not a good communicator, he had to have Aaron speak for him. Paul said he didn’t preach the word in eloquence. Judah is saying one of the things that qualifies him as a pastor is his eloquence and “gift of gab”. We shouldn’t forget that God uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.
Back to the scripture (Matthew 11:28-30). I don’t think it has anything to do with what Pastor Judah preached on for 1 hour. Here is the scripture in context:
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:25-30
The context of the scripture is knowing the Father, not finding your “calling” in life. I believed Jesus called those who were laboring under the yoke of the law, and trying to know God in a time of spiritual apostasy in the leadership of Israel. When we come unto Jesus we find rest in our Souls, because He said if we see Him we see the Father.
I find it interesting that he also equates the “yoke” of Jesus as being a worldly yoke. Pastor Judah told a story about a young man he mentors who likes do to computer programming. He is very good at it and successful at Microsoft. Pastor Judah said this was the guy’s yoke. Since he is good at programming, he is anointed to do it. I know a bunch of anointed heathens if that is the case.
The conclusion I came to from the scripture was Jesus Christ was trying to lead people to the Father, and was telling them to take off the yoke of the law, sin and religious leaders of that time and to follow him (through His teachings). Those who followed Jesus and His teachings were shown the Father. I think by misusing this scripture, Judah was doing the exact opposite. He was telling people the yoke was works (a calling). To his defense, he was saying the works would be easy – “a perfect fit”.
It is sad to me that preachers can get in front of thousands of people and pull scriptures out of context as a biblical “grab bag” to support whatever point it is they want to make. This seems to be the case to me.
Does anyone have a good biblical argument for Pastor Judah Smith’s use of this scripture for a personal calling? I would be very interested to hear it. If I am wrong (I have been known to be) please call me on it.
You can listen to the message here: http://www.thecity.org/message/the_perfect_fit1/
Tags: Pastor Judah Smith
April 27th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
I heard the message, was there in fact. I don’t recall it being all about himself. I also remember trying to keep up with all the scripture that was used (shown on the overhead as well). Gotta run, just leaving my 2 cents.
April 28th, 2007 at 12:32 am
Seth,
Thanks for giving your comments on the blog. I re-listened to the sermon to be sure I wasn’t exadurating when I said there was only one scripture…and you are right…there were two free scritpures tacked onto the end of the message as an afterthought.
I do not see any biblical support for how the verse mentioned (Matthew 11:28-30) was used. The yoke is being in Christ, and having Him show us the Father, not a calling we are to perform. If you think the yoke Jesus mentioned in Matthew 11:28-30 is a calling on our lives, please show us the scriptures used to explain the connection. Then show us how our calling will be something we are good at, or something that comes naturally (since that is what was taught).
There was also a lot of “me” and “I” and “you” preached in the message, and not much “Him”, “Jesus” and “God”.
Here should be the goal of our lives (and our discussions):
It seems to me there is a shortage in our thinking (and preaching) of losing our lives for the sake of Christ, and too much thinking (and preaching) about how we can gain and prosper for the Kingdom of God.
That’s my 2 cents.
April 28th, 2007 at 8:25 am
Greetings to my brothers and sisters of the catholic body of Christ.
I did not attend this sermon, but I did listen to it online and must submit that I completely concur with Craig’s analysis. Someone may use a scripture (or many scriptures) to preach a sermon, but that does not entail correct exegesis. My own thoughts on that sermon coincide with Craig’s, in that Judah ignores the context of the two Matthian verses, and he futhermore eisegetes his own interpretation of “yoke” into the text. Judah’s interpretation is unfortunately not the “perfect fit” for the biblical text.
April 30th, 2007 at 7:42 am
Hello Craig,
I appreciate your input on this issue. It is easy to doubt myself on these topics, since I don’t want to just be critical of the city church. It is good to have others listen to the message to be sure what I say isn’t just my opinion – or me reading into what they are trying to communicate.
After I listened to this message a 2nd time it was pretty clear that the message was skewed from the original intent of Jesus. People are then harmed by being taught something other than “The Truth”.
My heart on this blog is to have a place where people can get the facts about what is preached and where people can feel free to discuss the issues. I think there is a lot of fear at that church to “question authority” – so I hope to shed some light for those with questions.
Welcome to the blog!
Craig
May 2nd, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Hey Craig,
Nice blog. Jesus’ words in Matthew 11 are a salvation invitation to those burdened under the law. The law is a burdensome yoke that is heavy… too heavy. The law crushes us under its weight. But as the only One who can carry that yoke, Jesus offers another yoke – salvation by grace through faith in His substitutionary sacrifice on Calvary’s cross. His yoke is easy (but not easy believism), and His burden is light (“If you love Him, you will keep His commands, and His commands are not burdensome”).
How did a call to preaching ministry come from that passage?
May 2nd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
I think there was a message he wanted to give to the audience and found scriptures that could be used to support the message he wanted to give. Unfortunately we go into the scriptures with an agenda, or looking for support for our ideas in stead of going to the scripture to form our agendas and ideas.
May 4th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Brother Kirk,
What is easy believism?
May 7th, 2007 at 6:35 am
:) Cheap grace. It’s a phrase some Catholic theologians have used in the past use to refer to the dotirine of Faith Alone (sola fida).
May 7th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Kirk,
I thought that you believed in “sola fida” from your previous comment? . . . “salvation by grace through faith in His substitutionary sacrifice on Calvary’s cross” etc.
May 8th, 2007 at 7:12 am
Yes, I do. But those who do not understand or accept soda fida (such as Catholic theologians) tend to use that expression, or others, to criticize the doctrine. Unfortunately, many Christians give them a reason to criticize by “receiving Christ,” but not repenting of their sin and/or living by their decision. Their concern is warranted. As Martin Luther said, I believe in his commentary on James, “Faith alone saves, but faith that saves is not alone.” When we take His yoke upon us, by faith receiving Him into our lives for our salvation, His yoke is easy. But His yoke is still upon us nevertheless. We are now His to do as He wants and wills, not our own to do as we want or will. I suppose many Christians forget that. Thus, the criticism.
May 8th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Kirk,
Thank you for your detailed answer. I thought thats what you origanally meant. I am reading Martin Luther’s “Bondage of the Will” right now.
Brethren,
Here is a short essay that I read the other day. . .
What Is Legalism?
by John W. Robbins
Legalism is the notion that a sinner can, by his own efforts, or by the power of the Holy Spirit in his life, do some work to obtain or retain his salvation. Some legalists think man has free will and can perform good works if he just sets his mind to it, thereby obtaining the favor of God. This type of legalist thinks that a sinner can believe the Gospel on his own steam. Other legalists think that a sinner does not have free will, that any good he does is done by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling
in him, and it is these good deeds done by the power of the Holy Spirit that obtain or help obtain, retain or help retain, his salvation. Both types of legalists, but especially the latter, may acknowledge that Christ’s work of obedience is necessary for salvation, but both deny that Christ’s work is sufficient for salvation. Both types of legalists assert that to Christ’s work must be added the works of the sinner, done either under his own steam, or by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is what makes them legalists: their shared belief in the incompleteness or insufficiency of the work of Christ outside of them. They may differ on what constitutes good works; they may differ on whether only God’s law or church law as well is
to be obeyed; but they agree that the work of Christ alone is insufficient for their final salvation.
May 21st, 2007 at 7:12 am
[...] by an ex-City Church member. I haven’t had time to go through all of it, but I read his review of one of Judah’s messages, which sounded similar to a few reviews written here, and then I [...]
May 26th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
i feel bad for you guys. Yall dont have nothing for a youth group, and yet you attack someone w/ a youth group of over 1600. Hes gotta be doin something right. your sad.
May 26th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Hey JB,
Thanks for posting to this blog. I appeciate your comment, but I will say I know more about the ministry I talk about than you do about me or anyone who posts on this blog. With that said, here are some scriptures to think about.
Sound like any church you go to? “Tithe, tithe, buy my book…get the DVD, pay for my conference…and now – how about that “love offering”. “Give to me, and God will bless you.”
Since you didn’t use any scripture and just attacked us for using scripture, I wonder if you could look at the above quote from Paul and see if this might apply to us, or you. Read this post and see if any of it applies to people you know.
Next time your rip into us, please use scripture to back up your claims…then we can have a meaninful discussion of what is truth. Also, if you could point out any error you see in the posts, I would appeciate help in making sure my theology is correct.
Do you agree with Pastor Judah’s use of that scripture? I believe he took it out of context, do you?
Finally, remember the Mormons are really growing in numbers (way more than 1,600) so should we not point out the errors in their religion?
May 27th, 2007 at 8:02 am
Craig, great response to JB. The sad thing is that JB likely doesn’t care what the Bible really says, and instead is only interested in hearing what Judah tells him the Bible says.
If he were interested he would find the truth much like you and I have.
Side Note: I would love to hear more about how you ended up at The City Church in the first place.
May 27th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
I agree with Johnpaul,
American pragmatism also rules the way we think about church, that is to say, “if it is working – then it must be true”. Craig presented a strong defeater to this argument, namely, Mormons and other cults also are growing, but that does not justify their position on reality. There may be 1600 young people there, but if many of them stoppped to really think about what was going on then that number would change. Believe me – I used to be just like jb when I was under the indoctrination at City.
Blessings
May 29th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
I don’t think JB does care about what the Bible says, but I hope he starts to.
I answered an altar call Wendell gave about 5 years ago. I am ashamed to say it was after a prosperity message. My sister was becoming a member of the church and suckered me into going. I sat through the message amazed that all I had to do to please God and get rich was to give 10% to the City Church. I was also thinking how I would like to see the car he drives and the house he lives in…but during the altar call I was hit by the Holy Spirit. I responded and repented.
Since I had this experience at the City Church, I assumed their doctrine was correct…until I really started digging into the Bible for myself. I was fully engrossed (idolotry) in the City Church for a few years…they could do no wrong.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Not only are Mormons a growing cult, but to justify their doctrines they cite the “burning in the bosom” as a reason for their version of the truth. I think this is very similar to some Charismatics and word of faith proponents, where experience rules the mind. We bend truth to experience, when in reality that will never happen. Many people say “I feel the Lord’s presence in that church”, when that is the same argument Mormons use.
The Bible predicts there will be great signs and wonders that would fool the elect (if possible). It is urgent we do not base our spirituality on experience or success, but firmly on the Bible.
July 2nd, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Craig,
For the longest time I placed my City Church experiences above Scripture. I thought using my mind would hinder me from spirituality. I had MANY experiences with ‘laughing in the spirit’, ‘falling out in the spirit’, ‘prophesying’… etc. If anyone was on their way to spirituality, it was me. While now, applying my mind to Scripture has made me the most spiritual person. The truth I am learning and experiencing now does not kill the joy of spirituality, but is the pinnacle of it. Before, I was only consumed with being enthusiastic for the spectacular. I thought God was just wanted me to want Him. If I did then this would secure my own hapiness. The City Church offered this environment like no where else. But in scripture I have learned that God was not waiting for me. He is the one who knows me, predestined me, called me, justified me, and will glorify me (Rom 8:30) without me having any say. He says “It is finished” without consulting me first. At TCC I thought God was just a bigger and nicer version of me. He laughs like me, smiles like me, and just wants me to want Him. Ideas have consequences… and any ideas which are not biblical (no matter how seemingly spiritual), are next to phoney.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
I have been in some blogs with young City CHurch kids claiming they know it all, some even comparing themselves to the Almighty, and the whole time they defend a guy named Judah who is a “poser or fake” wannabe southern baptist preacher, going from twang to wannabe brotha talk it makes me sick.
Numerous times, I have refrenced 1 Tim 3:7 where it talks about “being an example for people outside the church”
Judah does nothing of the sort with his expensive house, car, clothes, and of all things a fetish for expensive watches and tells the congregation in the same sermon he loves to shop.
Who gives a rats behind if you like to shop or about materialistic things.
Give the meat and potatoes of the word, so that we all lift up the Lord.
A true leader, whether civilian, military, or even theological has to LEAD BY EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS TO FOLLOW.
Jesus did it and I believe if Jesus was alive today with many so called “annointed” preachers, he would be apalled and these pastors would be like a kid caught with his pants down in church. They would really be sweatin’
October 6th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Both Pastor Jude and Judah turn my stomach when I listen to them. Your right, their sermons are more on themselves than on the perspectives of the scriptures. They are glowing in pride and one can hear a proudful tone in their voice.
October 11th, 2007 at 12:26 am
Hmmm, I see that there is some well placed scripture here. It seems there is a decent understanding of the word in general. Now I just wanted to point out a few things. First, God actually wishes for us to prosper.(3 John 1:2) Did you know that? I would also like to reference Deuteronomy 8:18 Now I don’t mean everyone else wear rages and the leader of the church should be “ballin” rolling in the cash while others have nothing. There are many more scriptures to back up the fact that God doesn’t want believers/doers of the word (as we are not suppose to be just hearers of the word. (james 1:22-25) to be poor. Now concerning your call to ministry, the bible tells us that we are all called. However, we will all be anointed in different areas. Every hear of the 5 fold ministry anyone? (Ephesians 4 is a good place to check this out) So I didn’t hear what this pastor said, but the scripture referenced is out of context. ;) Now concerning Mormons. I am not sure if that what faith some may be or are coming out of, but why would you even believe Mormonism when they use another book to back up what they believe that was put together by a person who is obviously a false prophet who we are warned about in the old testament and in the new??? So lastly I wanted to say nice blog and good conversation stirring up each others spirits as we get deeper into our studying of the word, it should begin to etch itself into your heart. :)
October 11th, 2007 at 7:03 am
Hey Adryan,
Thanks for checking out the blog and leaving a comment. Let me give you my thoughts on prosperity.
Does God want us to prosper? Yes. But we need to be careful to not define prosperity as the world defines it, but as God defines it. I can give many scriptures, but I will do just two:
Having money and “more than enough” does not make one prosper in the eyes of Jesus.
When Jesus addressed His church, he said the rich (of this world) were poor, and the poor (of this world) were rich. I think it would be wise to view prosperity the same way Jesus did.
October 11th, 2007 at 7:34 am
Oh yeah, about 3 John 1:2 here it is below:
Notice how the scripture says “I pray that you may prosper in all things”. This means that John wishes they would prosper, this does not prove God wishes all to prosper. This was a common way to open a letter at the time John wrote this, so I wouldn’t read too much into it.
I think the last sentence is very important: “I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in the truth”.
I think it is important that we don’t “proof-text” the bible either for prosperity or for my point of view. For more info, see this link: http://www.doctrinetalk.com/?p=67
October 11th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Thanks for the response, but in taking things out of context you are using revelations to say that God does not what us to prosper??? Now we are talking about end times here right? Ya I don’t think during that time he is going to mention that he wants us to be prospering. Also, if you truly believe in the bible you will understand that it is all God breathed scripture and not just a story written by the select 40 writers, but understand it only had ONE author, which is a historical account of mans past, present and future. :) Also, I am not saying we should be materialistic. Seek you first the Kingdom of God…. You know the rest I am sure. Also, if someone is just trying to use God as a get rich quick scheme, God knows your heart so it can’t be a lasting prosperity as love is not their motivator. I am saying that as a follower of the bible and a Christian (means to be Christ like) if you have a defeated attitude and believe you will be poor then you can have what you say you have. Given your ability to look up scripture I am sure you know about living and dying by the tongue? ^_^. So yes you gave good scripture as all of it is good, but you yourself should not look to take it out of context, Also the scripture you give actually goes into verse 3 so you gave 3 john 1:2-3. This is what also can cause division. You are saying one thing about the scripture and I am only saying what is there in the scripture, not what I believe, but what the word says. We should not be a stumbling block to one another. ;) You seem to be in a mode where you are seeking to challenge a lot of scripture by making it seem as if God does not want His people to live life and to live it more abundantly. Once again I am sure you know where the scripture comes from in what I have just typed. So thanks again for having it up.
October 11th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Also the last part that you reference “When Jesus addressed His church, he said the rich (of this world) were poor, and the poor (of this world) were rich. I think it would be wise to view prosperity the same way Jesus did.” he was watching how the rich of the world at that time and still today. Only gave a little of the goods, for show. Also, Jesus mentions this to his apostles when the young man hears what Jesus has to say concerning his riches and what he should do. Basically God is letting us know that if money is your only motivator then you are seriously lacking everywhere else. :) Also, if the young man did what he was told, you would see that later in that same set of passage Jesus lets us know that if the young man followed instructions he would have had 100 fold of what he left. Lastly you seem to be a fault finder, but you are taking things out of context yourself and you appear to be a church hopper. Sheep don’t go from flock to flock. Granted Jesus is our head Shepard, however Pastor in the greek translation for Shepard. Where has God set you?
October 11th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Hi Adyan,
I’ve been quietly following the small series of exchanges between you and Craig, and I have to say that Craig is using the Revelation passages in their proper context. Revelation chapters 1-3 do not yet reflect the end times events. They reflect the immediate time frame of the author, John, and they reflect the Church-Age in general… which is now. It is not until chapter 4 that Jesus gives John the revelation of escatological events.
Even more significantly, Craig’s interpretation of the Revelation verses is in keeping with the broader Biblical context as well. In the broader context of Scriptire, there may be times when we prosper physically and materially and there may be times when we do not. In either case, we are called to be faithful to Christ remembering where our true treausre lies… even more, to understand that Christ Himself is our treasure.
This is Paul’s secret to being content in Philippians 4:12. “I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.â€
Consider the Macedonian churches highlighted as an example of faith for all to take note of. We find Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 8:1-ff. “And now brothers, we want you to know about the grace God has given the Macedonian churches. Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their EXTREME POVERTY welled up in rich generosity.”
This passage, in context, is one of many examples of the following spiritual realities:
* Joy is not dependent upon wealth. (In fact, the book of James lets us know that wealth, while not wrong in itself, could be a hindrance to true joy).
* Poverty, even extreme poverty, is not incompatible with great faith.
* I can be used of God to meet the needs of others, regardless of what I have or do not have, because God is my source in life.
October 11th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Neither one of you seem to actually be reading what I typed as I have already said I know money should not be ones motivator. If you both accept that it’s ok to not be prosperous that is fine for you. :) As I have already mentioned I am not saying we should not praise God in all that we do, whether you see the manifested prosperity or not, we are to praise God. I know that I can rest in the Lord and rejoice for each day that He has given me. This blog seems to be a place the enemy has setup for individuals to cause division amongst each other. You or Craig are not taking time to read what I have written, as you both feel compelled to mention poverty every chance you get. Once again you can have what you say you will have. “hats off to you both” :)
October 11th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Hello friend. PLease understand, we are reading your words. That’s the problem. We’re not talking about motive. We’re talking about sound doctrine.. what God teaches in His Word and what He doesn’t. However, if money is not the motive, then why the commitment to material prosperity? I know, I know, it’s prosperity with a purpose. The Macedonian church is a great example that God’s purposes are not dependent on our prosperity. Of course it’s not wrong to make money… but nor does God command it, require it, or promise it to you ro me as followers of Jesus Christ. However, you seem pretty bent on your point of view… defending a theology and serving a god that exists to satisfy the western craving for materialic pleasure. That’s breaking the second commandment… which is idolatry… fashioning an image of God in your own mind to suit yourself.
I think all this web site is challenging Chrsitinas to do is seek the truth and to do so from objectively studying the Scriptures… not What does my pastor say or what does my system of theology say or what I want to try to make it say … but what does the Bible teach? If that is truly your commitment, and I pray that it is, then you should have nothing to fear and nothing to lose. Right?
October 11th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
PS Discussing various points of view on a matter is not at all being divisive. It’s called the free interchange of ideas which is normally considered very healthy… unelss of course one finds oneself in circles where such discussion is discouraged as it represents a threat to ‘group think,’ mind control, and status quo.
October 11th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Adryn,
Here is a part of a comment you just wrote:
“This blog seems to be a place the enemy has setup for individuals to cause division amongst each other. You or Craig are not taking time to read what I have written, as you both feel compelled to mention poverty every chance you get.”
You talk a good talk on scripture, but ask yourself one question that I ask most christians in blogs, WHY ARE YOU HERE THEN?
What motivated you to come to this blog? Like with television, radio, magazines, you have a choice to turn it off, read it, or ignore it. But yet, still after reading comments in this blog, you felt the temptation to give your 2 CENTS, quote biblical passages to support your own biblical or worldly view, that to me is what is wrong with christians today. I too am guilty of this. We get drawn into debates and arguments, for what, to prove we are RIGHT and others are WRONG?
You my friend, made the biblical mistake of not following your heart and true christian ways of coming into this blog, no matter how small of a way, to try and persuade, argue, debate, or whatever you call it, to convince people your opinion or interpretation of the passages you quoted are the correct interpretation to support your argument. Once again, not a reason to enter this blog. If you looked, this blog started because of how folks feel of JUDAH SMITH’s so called pastoring and prosperity type movement that is going on at City Church. If you don’t know the secular saying, “Opinions are like assholes, we all have one” Sorry for the swear word, but I wanted share this with you friend so next time, read the blog, then before posting, you ask yourself one question:
WHY AM I ENTERING THIS BLOG AND I AS A CHRISTIAN DO I NEED TO POST SOMETHING TO SHOW LOVE LIKE GOD OR TO PROVE A POINT?
October 11th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Adryan,
I didn’t call you names, accuse you of anything or demean you in any way. I simply pointed out in scripture where I believe your point of view is shown to be in error.
In my opinion the only time there was division in our exchange is when we are accused of being “church hoppers”, “divisive”, and tools of the devil. Not exactly the best way to start a loving dialog if you ask me.
I disagree with how you interpret scripture, and I disagree with the word of faith and prosperity gospel you seem to subscribe to. I could give more examples, but I can see you don’t care to hear my point of view and are very defensive. What the heck, I can’t resist this one.
You said:
I disagree, I only have what God has given me. What I say doesn’t matter…I can ask God, but it is up to Him to decide what to give me. That’s why I call Him LORD. That simple little statement you made seems harmless, but it turns you into a god and turns God into your little butler (having to do what you say). I shunned that false gospel.
October 11th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
LOL. To answer Craig, I am not defensive. I said division and not divisive. Just pointing out that the scripture referenced in John and also the word I typed have been altered. ;) I don’t have to defend what the Word of God actually says. ;) I share the point of view that God has. There is no where in the bible. (if there is please show me) where we see the history of man, anyone that was a mighty person of faith where they were poverty stricken their whole life. I stand on the Word of God and I don’t ask for understanding through my own wisdom, but wisdom from the Holy spirit so that I may have true revelation. If you are a prosperous person then God should get the glory for that. IF you have not reached a level of prosperity, then you are to still praise him. Prosperity is not for everyone, as Jesus lets us know that we will always have the poor, but we will not always have Him (physical manifestation ;) ) So like the bible tells us there will be those that are not blessed financially. The bible also lets us know that He will bless us so that we can be a blessing to others. If you have a different interpretation on the Word of God that is fine. I am not making a God to suite myself as Kirk claims. However, if you feel God is a God that wishes for you to suffer “lack” throughout your life then accept that. I can only urge you to read more of the old testament, as the new testament is a lot of reiterated information from the old. Hello, people, where did Jesus get His knowledge from to pass down to His disciples? The information that God had made available already…..I am a man and not God. Never claimed to be God. ;) I personally would never do that. You are taking that out of context claiming that Jesus is saying we can becoming Gods? Certainly not! I believe it is in the book of Matthew the scripture that I have paraphrased. I am sure you will check it out? :) Love is a major theme in the bible also and that may be missing here. To schneidt1, being a Christian doesn’t mean you stay inside a little bubble and don’t interact with others. I originally posted about the discussion of the miss use of scripture for one’s calling. So thanks for reading that schneidt1. ^_^ Obviously there has been no mention of the calling that I referenced scripturally, or a doer of the word, or Deuteronomy 8:18. Like I said you all feel compelled to speak poverty into a believers life. No thank you. God just wants us to choose him of our own free will over everything else. I am not sharing my point of view but the word of God. ;) I was only and am still only sharing the word of God. I didn’t even know anything about prosperity in the bible until I got into more in-depth study. So that is not what led me to God and made me realize that Jesus is my Savior. As it seemed that was being implied.
October 11th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Just so you know, paragraphs help readers understand what you are trying to say, smiley faces don’t. It hurts my eyes trying to read the big blocks of text.
This is the best quote ever:
If I got a nickel every time I heard that…
October 11th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
If TCC is Spirit filled then why all the hype about money? Pastor Wendell and company are preaching a watered down Gospel. A seducing spirit, as though it seems because of the prosperity doctrine. In the book of Acts 8:18-24 we see that Simon, the sorcerer of Samaria, requested the power of the Holy Spirit by offering them money. Peter rebuked him for his heart was not right in the sight of God. Then there is Marilyn Hickey selling the anointing of the Holy Spirit for $150 through the materials she has created. There is also Orel Roberts, a 33 degree Freemason, who proclaimed one time that if he doesn’t receive a certain amount of money, God was going to take his life. Then there is Rabbi Daniel Lapin, one who doesn’t believe in Jesus and criticizes the New Testament, teaching the prosperity doctrine at TCC seminars. This is a clear message that prosperity is more important than Jesus. Pastor Wendell endorses these people and they approve of him. James 4:4, addresses them as adulterers and adulteresses, those who are at friendship of the world.
There shouldn’t be anything said at all about prosperity, it doesn’t belong in the sermon. The sermons, from the very beginning, were meant for the conditioning of the heart. It’s dealing with the sin in our lives, how to get closer to God, filled with the Holy Ghost, yet individual and corporate sins are never mentioned at TCC. Instead you hear about how righteous these so-called ministers are living and very little on lessons of Christianity. How is it I can get more about lessons of Christianity on the Internet than at The City Church? I don’t know about others but one thing I’m convinced of, the Holy Ghost is a convicting power, not a seducing one!!!!
October 11th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Yes the bible does let us know that the Holy Spirit is not for sale and that it is NOT a seducing feeling that it would seem you have witnessed from the TCC place in question. There are those out there that are trying to take advantage of scripture and say if you send $4.97 right now you can share in this awesome anointing I am feeling from God. Not biblical at all. Totally understand what you are saying John Vian in regards to what you are addressing.
October 11th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
Excellent post John. It is amazing hearing you say all the things I discovered as I withdrew from those who claimed “godliness is a means to gain”.
October 11th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
If I may interject a quick comment, I don’t think Craig or Kirk are trying to “speak poverty into a believer’s life”. I believe they are trying to clarify, from scripture, what true prosperity is.
Unlike what most modern American pastors teach us, true prosperity isn’t financial, but spiritual. (See the scriptures that Craig and Kirk presented) Does this mean that God wants us poor? No. There may be times where we have plenty, or have little, as Paul found out. The most important aspect is to trust our Heavenly Father for our daily needs, and to be content knowing God provides for his children, for those who ask. “If†you have finances, this is a blessing from God, and you should use it to help others. You should not let money be your motivating goal in life, or place it above God. You should use it for his glory.
Deuteronomy chapters 7 and 8 were for Israel concerning the blessing or cursing of God if they choose to follow or reject the Old Testament law. Since Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of this law, these blessings and cursing no longer apply to followers of Christ. Instead, Jesus gave his followers new commandments that are written on the heart. He has also given us his Holy Spirit to help with in the following of his new commandments. Some of his new commandments deal with forgiveness, in how we are to forgive others their trespasses against us, otherwise our sins will not be forgiven. Other commandments deal with not eating and drinking with drunkards. By saying all of this, it is dangerous to pick certain Old Testament promises and think they can apply to New Testament believers. This is how crazy doctrines get established in the Church. Everything needs to be considered in context.
Kevin
October 11th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Thanks Craig. At least there is a common ground that I can share with Adryan. Money is not the theme. Yes there are people at TCC who have a heart for Jesus and God does bless those who give with a glad heart. May not be with money; however, but there are other ways God can bless someone. It’s the leadership who is in error. Never should one allow the Synagogue of Satan to teach on any doctrine whatsoever! What’s next? A homosexual perhaps???? ???? (No pun intended.)
October 11th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
To everyone that calls them a Christian in this blog, folks like Adryan didn’t come into a blog to ARGUE OR DEBATE scripture, they simply were told about this blog of us not agreeing with Judah Smith and the prosperity movement happening at TCC.
You see folks, I have see guys like Adryan that try to sidstep their rationale for coming into a blog. They are only doing this, not to increase their theological knowledge or insight to passages, nor to show LOVE, they do it because someone told them or they came across it surfing the NET and they do the natural thing in life, ARGUE THEIR POINT.
Look inside your heart Adryan and answer the question, WHY DID YOU COME INTO THE BLOG? Don’t tell me because….” I just wanted to point out a few things. ” like you already stated……
Tell us the real reason you came, be honest. You know, if you lie, God is watching you, right?
October 11th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Adryan,
I went ahead and gave you the benefit of the doubt and read your original scriptures you referenced in your first blog entry, and so here we go with what I found and disagree with you on:
1) 3 John 1:2 You are using this passage to justify “prosperity”, are you kidding me man. This was addressed to Gaius from “The Elder” praying that all is well, that Gaius would be in good health and spirit, so how do you get we shall “ALL PROSPER” from this. This passage does not prove we all have prosperity either with money, strength, smarts, etc….. this doesn’t support any of your points, sorry.
This is what I mean, folks nowadays, INTERPRET biblical passages and try and fit it to whatever they think, NOT GOD……Judah Smith does the same thing with his sermons on “being perfectly yoked” or the “perfect fit” sermon if you so desire to listen for yourself Adryan.
2) Your James 1:22-25 this was all about PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH, listening, hearing, doing what God wants, not what the world wants. Walking the walk of God, not of this world. So, where in the heck you got how this:
“There are many more scriptures to back up the fact that God doesn’t want believers/doers of the word (as we are not suppose to be just hearers of the word. (james 1:22-25) to be poor. ”
Sorry man, you like many preachers, once again are grasping a passage to fit YOUR ARGUMENT……wrong answer man, you don’t see it yet, do you?
3) Now, to say we are all “annointed”, once again, you are grasping or interpreting your own way. I would have agreed about we all HAVE GIFTS
ON the MORMON thing, sorry man, not sure who in this blog you addressed that part to.
Maybe with my comments, you will see I am not violating Matt 7:1-5 or Eph 4:29. All I am doing is, pointing out you are doing what others in Christian blogs sometimes do, you pick passages and refrence them to support your so called disagreement with other CHristians.
We are to come with LOVE, even in disagreement. I don’t know you, but can only assume, you have LOVE in your heart, even for those that grossly disagree with your comments and position on your blog entries.
October 11th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Greetings to all,
Adryan, I first want to thank you for your participation on this blog. However, I must also add my own critique of your particular theological orientation to this conversational corpus. For the sake of brevity I will keep my comments quite terse, and I think I will be able to disclose what I find problematic in your position with only one paragraph of critique.
I inferred from your writing style that you probably lack higher education, or, perhaps you simply employ lazy literary technique because of the casual nature of online discussion. More importantly, however, I have noticed that you lack not only the resources needed for proper biblical exegesis, but you furthermore lack the direction that is necessary in order to exegete the text. My advice for you would be to find some legitimate biblical commentaries and perhaps a handbook on biblical exegesis. Remember that each author of the biblical text has a different argument from the others. They have different theological perspectives and different interests. They use terms and concepts differently. Some write didactic literature, while others write poetry. You must understand what the author is writing about, the historical context, and also the nature of the genre that the author is using. I think that once you understand what biblical literature really is, you will understand how adherents of the”prosperity gospel” have completely misread and misinterpreted the text. Good luck
October 11th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Great insights schneidt1. I agree 100%. In the process of discovering who the real wolves are, Adryan should at least do the research to see who is associated with who. These are the foot prints and sheep do not leave a paw print, if you will. Just like darkness does not associate with light. I think most people on this blog will agree with that.
October 11th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
John Vian, you said “Pastor Wendell and company…”. Lol, I just had to laugh. I also think your comments are fantastic.
Craig The Philosopher, you believe central Christian doctrine such as ‘Hell’ or ‘penal substitutionary atonement’ cannot be objectively found in scripture. In fact, you say that no objective truth can come from scripture because everyone has a different interpretation. How are you so sure then that ‘the prosperity gospel’ is not scripturally sound? Are you nit-picking which doctrines are clear and which ones aren’t? Correct me if I’m misrepresenting your beliefs, but I’m just curious to know my good friend in Christ.
Adryan, I used to go to TCC. I remember P. Wendell saying many times, “don’t pray God your will be done. That’s not in the bible anywhere.” TCC, along with many churches, teach that God is standing by, just waiting to bless us. All we have to do is want what He’s poised to give us! My friend, I would like to challenge you and ask that you get this false view of God as far away from your thinking as possible.
Remember that because our faith is placed in Christ, we know that He is able to give or withhold things from us as He best sees fit. This means we could be either poor or rich, and all along our faith may be in tact. If this is how one’s faith looks, it does not mean Thier faith is weakened or possesses doubt. It means one’s faith is as it should be, trusting Christ in ALL circumstances. Our faith is to grow in all circumstances that God ordains.
It is un-biblical to assume that God ultimately consults our wills above His sovereign will for our lives. Even if this entails poverty or death. The beauty of being a Christian isn’t having rights to goodies in accordance to our wanting them, but that for the Christian there is no such thing as a trajedy in any circumstance because of the joy, hope, and peace we have with God. All this reaches far beyond this ant-size life. Finally, scripture does teach that we ought to seak God’s will for our life circumstances, unlike P. Wendell emphatically states.
James 4:13 “Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”
October 11th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Keven, for what it’s worth, I think your comments are great too!
October 12th, 2007 at 7:19 am
Hello Cameron,
I thoroughly enjoyed your comments on my raging relativism (: But, I’m afraid that you are thinking of my position in modernist terms, that is, either one believes in objective truth, or there is no objective truth at all. I reject that dichotomy, and furthermore, concerning exegesis, I believe that while one cannot know “absolutely” or “objectively,” one can know “adequately.” This entails a method of exegesis that pays close attention to the things I previously listed. Thus, John 3.16 would be poorly interpreted if one concluded that it was talking about airplanes. It would be better interpreted with some sort of broad soteriological conclusion. Perhaps there is even a better interpretation once one understands the context and argument of John.
Secondly, I hardly think that we can call “penal substitutionary atonement” a central Christian doctrine. Jean Calvin, who was trained in Law in Orleans, emphasized this metaphor because it resonated with his own agenda and with the culture of the day. No one, except for some reformed circles, still holds that emphasis today (See N.T. Wright). Regarding Hell, I do not deny the possibility of it, but my concern is that people have interpreted the text in a way that might ignore some of the literary techniques of the author (and this is not new either). Oh, and don’t think I am anti-Calvin. I just don’t think he is a part of the Trinity like a lot of reformed folks do.
Semper Reformanda!
October 12th, 2007 at 8:29 am
CTP,
I agree with you on the ‘adequate’ thing, kudos. Yet, N.T. Wright teaches a ‘kingdom only’ gospel. That is, all must become part of a physical kingdom, whether Gentile or Jew. He derives these conclusions from liberal Jewish commentaries, and other historical writings. Talk about objectivity. Don’t you realize that his interpretations of history are open for reinterpretation?! N.T. does not have the final say on scripture because he is a history expert! Do you believe in sola-historia (history alone being the ultimate rule of bible interpretation)! I hope not, because so many people disagree on historical interpretation.
Regardless, the kingdom is about being born again first. Jesus says in John 3 that we must be born again to see God’s kingdom. Luke 17 says the kingdom does not come with careful observence but it is inside of you.
Finally, we should consult scripture to see if it teaches penal substitutionary atonement, not N.T. Wright and history. Just because Calvin was trained in law, does not necessarily disprove penal sub. atonement! You’ve studied logic, you know this. The New Testament uses the greek word ‘halistarion’ which is translated ‘propitiation’. This greek word traces its meaning back to the OT ‘mercy seat’, better translated ‘the place of rest through purging’. And we all should know that the mercy seat was the lid of the ark where the High Priest would sprinkle blood of an innocently sacrificed animal on behalf of Israel to make appeasement for Yahweh.
The NT word ‘halistarion’ carries this same idea, namely, that rest (atonement) is made possible through purging (sacrifice). This is penal substitutionary atonement! Rom 3:25-26 “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”
The phrase “sacrifice of atonement” is the greek word ‘halistarion’ here, which again has the compound meaning of bringing rest through purging, as in the OT sacrifices.
craig, perhaps you should start another thread so we can discuss this topic further, I didn’t mean to detract from the original discussion here.
October 12th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Hey Cameron,
Write up a little blog entry with what you guys are discussing and I can post it…that way there will be its own thread…
October 12th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
Yes yes. I’m sure a new thread would be better. But I’m not sure that Cameron and I will come to different conclusions. We have different starting-points, that is, different foundational beliefs about the biblical text and about God. Thus, our conclusions will be very different. I’m always open for a good discussion, but I am getting tired of blogging. If Cam were still up here in Seattle I would take him out for a few beers and we could go at it (:
October 12th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
I hear ya Craig V. Wish I could take you up on that :) I’ll take a rain check for the distant future.
craig, perhaps I’ll email you something sometime for a thread. Thanks.
October 14th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
dude, u need to chill. Since when did Jesus say, “Go ye into all the world and Condemn all believers, that YOU shall show them the way for they are not as holy as YOU are!” after reading your blog, i got discouraged and stopped reading it after the 2nd paragraph. heres some pointers:
1. Dont critize people who lack when you have achieved it (key word: WHEN)
2. You will never experience God’s power without going beyond the text and having a real life experience.
3. Stop condemning believers
October 15th, 2007 at 8:02 am
Hi Joe,
I always find it funny how people say to not criticize, then criticize me. The irony makes for a good laugh.
Anyway, back to your point. Jesus didn’t say that quote, but that doesn’t mean my blog is bad.
Paul said this:
The prosperity gospel is contrary to the doctrine taught by Christ and the Apostles. The city church as one of the main pushers of that doctrine in the area, so I mark it. If you read the blog you can see my reasons for believing it is a false gospel.
Your 3 points are simply not biblical.
October 15th, 2007 at 8:19 am
When he said “real life experience” I think he was referring to LSD (: Most people in the ’60’s and ’70’s said to shut your brain off and just “experience” it. It is funny how similar LSD is in comparison with charismaniac Word of Faith teaching.
October 15th, 2007 at 8:34 am
I agree. They use the bible when convenient to their doctrines, but when the scriptures don’t line up they tell you to quit thinking and “get in the river”. It is amazing how close the two teachings are to each other (LDS and Word of Faith). The WOF followers have their own “burning in the bosom”.
October 15th, 2007 at 8:38 am
Hey… Maybe THAT’s why Ed Decker likes WOF .
October 15th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
(: ha ha. Actually I said “LSD” not “LDS.” I was referring to the drug, not the cult, but apparently both work and make my statement coherent.
In conclusion, LSD, LDS, and WOF are all experience-driven deceptions. If I had a choice, I would go for LSD – more fun.
April 7th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Man, you guys are bitter (Heb. 12:15). So easily offended and used to living on feelings , but justifying it by proclaiming you use only Scripture. Did you ever talk to God about what HE thinks about your evident attitudes??? Knowledge puffs up ( 1 Cor. 8:1 AND1 Cor. 13:9-13). You guys have hard hearts. Words are powerful and the fruit of your words are of bitterness and agenda. Let us know when you stop church-hopping on emotions, people, personalities and perception and start serving Jesus Christs’ bride called the Church and stop attacking it. You may or may not have served, but I can tell you aren’t anymore. All you do is sit in your chairs and criticize the Church You are on very dangerous territory> That lack of peace you ‘feel’, those knots you keep getting in your stomach is the Holy Spirit telling you to humble yourselves and submit to Jesus as Lord not your ‘doctrine’ and justification/compromises (Prov. 21:2;16:2). It’s NEVER too late to ask for forgiveness until you breathe your last breath. God made us for relationship with Him and Jesus came to re-connect that relationship. You guys are trying to walk on your own two-feet and throwing a tantrum on why nothing is working out to God, at the same time. Grow-up and stop believing the lies of the enemy.
To address you prosperity babble: You know what the rich and poor have in common? God is the Maker of them BOTH! (Prov. 22:2)> God has the final say in all those who live here on earth…not you.
Go read ALL of Proverbs itself and then tell us what you think about ‘prosperity’ and stop using ‘prosperity’ as an excuse for a deeper issue in your heart!
Since you guys also like to drink>(Prov. 20:1; 23:29-35) and since you will not give this blog much thought read>(Prov. 23:9) BUT my wise advice to you is let it go and move on! Fall back in love with your First Love. Stop trying to make everything so complicated. Also stop basing your faith off what people have said or done to you because… newsflash: people are not perfect, but God is. And if you have the LACK of pride stop complaining about anything and everything that offends you and start writing stuff that is uplifting! (Prov. 17:22)
Stop typing and start living it. Colossians 1:10-14. God still loves you guys(Prov. 3:11-12) even though you may not love those He has placed in authority(Rom. 13:1)
April 8th, 2008 at 8:09 am
Of course we are not going to take your post seriously; it is a collection of poorly written prose with no argument, indicative of your own assumption that we are responding with emotionalism. That is, your words are evocative of such an emotional outburst.
Lacking a main point makes a response hard, but I can try to do my best.
1. You have built a straw-man, an evil entity, which hates churches and seeks to destroy them, and then you sweep anyone with critical thinking on this blog over into this caricature.
2. You assume that we are trying to play God’s role of rebuke and judgment, BUT ISN’T THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW???? You say that we are using scriptural passages in our arguments against prosperity, and yet, that is what you are doing with your cute little jabs against alcohol, or against our so-called “hard hearts.”
(By the way, there is no biblical argument against drinking. Jesus himself make wine out of water, and the text even lends itself to the interpretation that Jesus himself was a bit tipsy at the moment).
So, Jim, you completely misunderstand us, and you can’t even offer a substantial critique. So, please go pick up a grammar book and some exegetical commentaries and then come back with some deeper insights.
With love in Christ (:
C.T.P.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
I’m not the ’smartest’ man in the world, but I do have a relationship with Jesus whom I have given all my heart, mind, and body to. As a result what you guys say in your blogs leaves a bad taste in my mouth and has no edification for anyone, but yourselves.
Also, show me the Scripture that says that Jesus was ‘tipsy’ when drinking. The Scripture does not even mention if He ever did drink at that wedding of the infamous water to wine miracle. The reason wine is mentioned in the Bible is because water was horrible to drink because of all the bacteria and lack of purification technology. The people of the Bible had a much better reason on why they pretty much had to drink and not for social issues The only other time wine is mentioned in the Word is when to stay away from it and not give yourself to it. There is a reason why alcohol is also called ’spirits’.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Jim, I’m using an argument from the historical-critical method of biblical hermeneutics, by which I believe I can establish Jesus’ intoxication at the party, but since you are probably not familiar with textual criticism at all, my thoughts probably don’t mean much. Everyone attending a wedding party in a 1st century Jewish context would have been drinking. If the wine ran out then obviously people were drinking too much. Also, pay close attention to Jesus’ words, “Woman, don’t you know my time has not come.” The very choice of words here lends itself to my interpretation. You need to stop reading the Bible through the perspective of the 1960’s Jesus movies, and start viewing Jesus as a human being, who participated in culturally accepted activities.
More importantly, however, is my concern about your statement: “given all my heart, mind, and body.” If indeed you have given all your mind, then you should seek to further your knowledge about biblical interpretation and theology. I do not think that you have to become a scholar, but there are plenty of materials out there for the everyday Christian to use. A simple book can be of valuable assistance; might I suggest “Grasping God’s Word.”
Furthermore, “the Church” that you so passionately seek to protect from our criticism is no longer functioning as the “the Church” ought to. Instead, it has become a corporation, a business, a paragon of capitalism, and a model for a magical theology of finance. If you remember Jesus’ actions in the temple concerning their marketing enterprise, you might understand better what this blog and other blogs are up to.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Hi Jim,
Thanks for taking the time to write and express your opinion about the blog. You don’t spend much time talking about how the doctrines preached at the city church are true, and how I need to believe them to live a victorious life…in stead you throw insulting barbs in our direction.
Thank God I have the armor He has provided believers (shield of faith, the sword of His word, belt of TRUTH, cloak of zeal, shoes of the true Gospel) so I do not take offense at your slander of our spiritual character.
Jim, I would encourage you to read through my posts and see if I am wrong in my assessment of the city church’s doctrines. Then if I am correct, does the Bible support my view of their doctrines, or do their explanations of the doctrines ring true to scripture? May I suggest you don’t try to judge my intentions or my heart, since you are very far from the mark.
Jesus said He is the Truth, and God desires worshipers in Spirit and in Truth…so seek the truth with a humble heart and see what Jesus can show you.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I pray you would take the time to do this. Jesus said He would send the Helper who would guide us into all truth.
April 13th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Joseph Smith also thought he was hearing from an angel sent by God. We both know that was not true. It’s not prayer taht opens us to God it is the conditions of our hearts that leads us to the One true God. We can be open to anything, any god, if our hearts our not in the right ‘attitude’. So my question to you is: Is your heart in the right place? Or is it full of bitterness?
You sound like a very hurt man. That does not make me glad it saddens me to see you so hardened to something you once enjoyed. Because what usually follows with something or someone you enjoyed being with, (getting offended by them/ situation) comes the opposite of enjoyment to just hate. You seem so ‘hellbent’ on destroying this one church you call the “City Church”. I’ve heard their teachings along with many other speakers (ie Ravi Zacharias, Reinhard Bonnke, John Bevere, etc.) and they all flow with what God is doing. PLEASE do yourself a favor and re-examine your heart and find that exact moment when you got turned off to this church and why. You may find what you don’t want to…or maybe you already have.
April 13th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Jim, the big difference between the Holy Spirit guiding us and a false spirit guiding us is that we can align all that we are informed with Scripture. It is our duty as believers to hold all other believers up to the standard of Scripture, not just The City Church. However, TCC affects a lot of people’s beliefs, and without even knowing it, misinforms them in some pretty serious ways, such as not even having a comprehensive understanding of the basic gospel. Speaking for myself, and as one who left TCC on good terms, I highly question the TCC’s attitude towards sound doctrine and the gospel. I judge this by their fruit. They lack faithfulness to the gospel of scripture. What are your thoughts on this Jim?
April 14th, 2008 at 7:05 am
It seems that everyone who ever challenges what we do here always falls back on the “heart-is-not-right” attack. They can’t defend their beliefs, or escape our arguments, or even acknowledge that there is a legitimate reason for such cclesiastical critical analysis.
Why is it so hard for you people (Jim) to figure us out? We are simply saying that “X is the case” because of reasons P, Q, and R, it’s simple logic. Either you argue that “~X is case” or you question our reasons, don’t shove this appeal to emotions, this argumentum ad hominem at us.
May 7th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
wow! so many arguments! so what should a church be teaching? what church do you recommend to get the sound doctrine? is christianity supposed to be this legalistic? im new to this whole thing, but i know it aint that hard… the disciples were fishermen?? you don’t need a lot of brains to do that do you?
May 8th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Hello Rambo,
Knowing sound doctrine is not legalistic…saying you have to tithe is legalistic because it is part of the OT law. Here is why we need sound doctrine:
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
That is a good start of why we need to watch our doctrine. It is not legalistic to do so, it is wise. Jesus said not all that call Him “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven. How will you know the wolves from the sheep? The scriptures our the light for us to discern if they are true for false teachers – it manifests in what they teach.
You said the disciples were fishermen, yes that is true…but that doesn’t mean they didn’t care about doctrine, and it certainly doesn’t mean they were un-intelligent. You don’t have to be a genius to be a Christian, you need to be humble before God.
You asked a very good question, how do we know what Church to attend?
1. Study the doctrines of Christ
2. Find a church that preaches them diligently, and takes scripture seriously
Here are a few things I recommend to listen to:
True and false conversion by Ray Comfort: http://www.livingwaters.com/learn/trueandfalse.htm
Scroll down on this page to a sermon called “Superficial Faith” by Charles Leiter – it is very good…
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=441
Also, listen to a series on the Word of Faith and Prosperity teachings…
1. Go to http://www.thenarrowpath.com
2. Click on “Topical Lectures”
3. Scroll down to “Word of Faith” and there are 4 lectures about it.
Listen to these and see if they are biblical. Since you are new to this whole thing, I think it is critical that you study a few more things. I became a Christian under The City Church and am very thankful that God showed me through scripture the errors in their teachings…and the dangers of being under their doctrines.
May 8th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Rambo said: “the disciples were fishermen??”
My friend, be careful about drawing a conclusion concerning the relationship between education and spirituality. Remember that Peter recites Joel in Acts 2, which means that during the short time during which he followed Jesus, he studied the Hebrew language and memorized part of the OT.
Thus, Peter’s passion for following Jesus led to his passion for learning.
Too many pastors try to use this “fisherman” argument to escape the demands and pains of study, but it is at their loss.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:10 am
I am in complete agreement with sound doctrine. However, let it be said that there is a fine line that we can cross as to who becomes the verifier of sound doctrine. Most people probably proport that “sound doctrine” is simply their interpretation of the Bible. In the Bible, the group with whom Jesus was so angry was the doctrinal gate keepers of that day. Again, I’m all for sound Christian doctrine, but let’s be careful that we don’t become the doctrinal troll under the bridge. Furthermore, if the people who really need Christ read sites like this they are going to continue to view us in the way that they currently do…sad and irrelevant. And while we’re sitting here writing to each other– what are we REALLY doing about reaching THEM with the simple life-giving message of Christ?
I usually don’t hit sites like this much….there’s really too much work to do to spend time all this time debating. Probably won’t be back.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Hi Frank,
The unwillingness for Christians to determine sound doctrine and discuss it with an open heart is exactly why people like Judah Smith and the prosperity preachers are able to teach doctrines that didn’t exist 75 years ago. Your comment unfortunately shows how the prophesies of old are coming true right before our eyes…
You said:
I had a witnessing outreach at a college here on Wednesdays and was able to share the Gospel one-on-one with many college students. Now do I qualify by your standards to talk about doctrine? That’s just a silly comment for you to make.
What ever happened to loving the truth?
May 19th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
I don’t think it’s our place to judge. I don’t know about you, but the Holy Spirit is my counsel.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Hi Lauren,
Thanks for your comments. I don’t know what you mean it isn’t my place to judge? What am I judging incorrectly? Are we not admonished in scripture to evaluate what is being taught? The epistles themselves were written in response to many false teachings…
I don’t think I have judged any person here, just evaluated what they have said in light of scripture…do you see it differently?
Thanks,
Craig
June 5th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
1. “I will say I know more about the ministry I talk about than you do about me or anyone who posts on this blog. ” Craig comment 13 that sentence is utterly stupid. You know more about the ministry you talk about than i know about you? What the heck?
Comment 14. Craig, great response to JB. The sad thing is that JB likely doesn’t care what the Bible really says, and instead is only interested in hearing what Judah tells him the Bible says.
If he were interested he would find the truth much like you and I have.
1. That guy does not know me..nor does he know what i believe or care about.
2. Does not truth filter through our own opinion? What if my truth is wrong? What if your truth is wrong? And if I do not agree with the truth you have found does that mean that i am not interested in the Bible? Thats a hard case to make.
3. I dont go to City Church.
4. Craig i didnt rip into you. What you do is rip into people, and i wouldnt rip into you because whoever does not have love for his brother but claims to love Christ is a liar and the truth is not in him. As for the definition of a brother: Parable of the Good Samaritan.
June 5th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
JB said:
Then:
All in one post…nice. It seems like the whole reason for JB’s post was to rip into me (not the doctrines I talk about), once again without a scripture.
Thenk JB said:
My answer to that is Jesus said He is the Truth, so if you have the wrong truth then you don’t have Jesus.
June 6th, 2008 at 9:17 am
JB, Whoa, dude. Where are you coming from? Who’s ripping into whom now? I’ve been reading Craig’s responses, and I don’t find him ripping into people; all I see is him challenging people with scriptures.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Um, since the accusation comes out that someone is ripping another, I’ll step in and be the guilty party. JB, you need your head examined! You’re a brain-washed idiot who pays Federal Income taxes, does nothing about abortion, will say nothing to the damned who are lost, could care less about the lies taught in our public schools, and probably rely on psychiatry for your answers. I’m not being judgmental, just observing the obvious. You’re righteous in your own eyes and that’s the type of pride that sends people to hell. My answer for you is to spend five hours a day on your knees seeking God and in repentance. Accept it or leave it, your choice.
July 7th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
I just have to say to stop arguing on what people preach or say! there’s souls out there that are lost and going to hell and all you can do is gossip or slander one another?? Pastor Judah is an amazing man of God he spends a lot of times on his knees praying and seeking God I’m pretty sure God loves the way he preaches! I was so blessed to be ministered by him at a conference, besides Jesus used parables too! so this shouldn’t even be a topic to argue about because this isn’t what God called us out to do it says in the bible “before you take out the splinter in someonee else’s eye take out in the log in your eye” I’m paraphrasing but still! we should be fighting against the principalities of darkness not our fellow christians, so we should all go and repent and win those souls, that are lost!
July 8th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Hello Vicky,
2 Questions…
1. What in my article is false?
2. If what you say is true, aren’t you being a hypocrite by trying to take the speck out of my eye? Shouldn’t you be out trying to save the lost, not sending in blog posts telling me where I am wrong? Just something to think about…
Thanks,
Craig
July 8th, 2008 at 9:46 am
There is something called ‘hermeneutics’ when it comes to studying scripture. We even learned it in Generation Interns. It has to deal with how we approach the scripture consistently. We must look at the context of a passage and ask questions like “who was this written to?” or “what would the original audience have thought?”. It is very important to be consistent when it comes to this. Otherwise one could say “Paul was just addressing certain people in 1 Tim about church leaders-it’s ok to have homosexual pastors, and Jesus was only addressing His desciples when He said the Holy Spirit would come on them, so we don’t receive the Holy Spirit.” The way one interprets one passage will determine the method for interpreting others.
If we are just to make up stuff on the spot, then we are not preaching God’s word but our own word while only standing over God’s word. It is ok to preach our word, but this is what is called “opinion”. If we want God’s opinion then we must make sure we labor over studying scripture. That is, if we are interested in His opinion. The way TCC handles scripture indicates how much they love their own opinions over God’s, while all along considering it to be God’s. People can get away with this error very easily when they NEVER do verse by verse preaching. One’s favorite passages can be chosen at will.
We must make sure we do not go beyond what the Holy Spirit has inspired in scripture. We must only pull out as much as He has put into scripture. Otherwise, we make ourselves out to be the Holy Spirit.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
I was talking to a lady the other day and we were on the topic of GOD. She is unsaved and can not stand Christianity, where as I am one of 4 Youth Pastors in my church.
We were speaking about “why it is that she refuses to go to church and become a Christian” and her answer blew my mind. She said theres nothing more that turns her off becoming Christian – more than Christians do. I look around this blog and I see why!
Craig, say you are right about Judah, what are you really proving?
The fact of the matter is that I could come on here and back Judah up (and I do) but what does that matter to you? Your not fighting for Jesus’ right – Your fighting for your own. The worlds biggest bible philosopher could come on here and tell you every which way how the scriptures should be used and how they’re not – You will still defend your own personal conviction. I like that you believe whole heartedly because it proves that your passionate. But what message are you really sending? Say a non christian came on here and had a look at how unlogical, hard headed and strongly determined we are to prove everyone wrong – then what are we really fighting for? Are we wanting to see his glory or to see how technical Christianity has become?
July 17th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
CJ, what I tell unbelievers you reject Christianity because of Christians is that they should become one if they would be a better one because we need better ones. Also, if there were a perfect church out there, please don’t join it because you’ll ruin it because you’re imperfect. All this has nothing to do with holding other believers up to the stardard of God’s truth. That is not philosophy. It is fighting for the truth and doing so firmly in love. If you think that everyone holding hands, lighting a candle, and singing a coca-cola song is what wins sould you’ve got a very unbiblical picture. Jesus was offensive as Hell, because He preached on Hell, firmly yet in love. We must share the gospel and hold other believers up to that same gospel.
July 17th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Hello CJ,
The bible says many will suppress the truth in unrighteousness. I have found that many people use that excuse to reject Christ, but usually the real reason they reject Christ is because they love their sin…but I digress.
I am sorry that the truth is not a big deal to a youth pastor at a church big enough to have 4 youth pastors. With statements like:
Desiring to hear the unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ is not being technical. Sorry.
It is sad to be part of a generation where the Gospel is all about “me” and not much to do with “Jesus Christ”.
I guess we sholdn’t get “technical” about the trinity…or “technical” with Mormons, or “technical” with Jehovah Witnesses…you see my point. Heresy is heresy…we should hate a lie and love the truth.
I don’t have time to get into a bible study, but the love of the truth is important…
Jesus said the deception would deceive even the elect if possible…so it will be close to the truth. He also said that many who say “Lord, Lord” will not be with Him for eternity.
If you think seeking the truth is “technical Christianity” then I pity the youth you lead.
August 12th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Hey Craig,
You got some great stuff here. Don’t be discouraged by the naysayers who try to guilt you into shutting up. People like Judah are the lost ones, the preach a false gospel to thousands of kids all over the world, brainwashing them into believing in something that is simply not true. People like you and I have to be the weight on the other side of the scale, balancing out their crazy claims and false doctrines. To many people are so caught up in the entertainment aspect of people like Judah that they loose sight of the lack of truth. Keep blogging my friend!
August 13th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Wow, comparing mormons to a charismatic church…. Mr Craig the philosopher, that’s pretty sweet of you. I would love to take the time and tell you the “x” of why I believe in what I believe but I know that arguing doctrine here is like talking to a backdoor. Especially with some guys that have doctrine so figured out. I just stumbled upon this blog and I have to agree with Jim. This is the most distasteful thing I’ve read since a blog my friend posted about becoming atheist. I’m not commenting to criticize but to just inform you that I can’t read your “sound doctrine’ thoughts anymore. They are distasteful and not uplifting whatsoever. If your goal is to bring revelation to “blinded and brainwashed people” then keep up the good work. Thanks for the revelation. I’ll continue to allow myself to be brainwashed and not practice “sound doctrine.”
Baptist, Catholic, Non-Denom, Lutheran, Pentacostal, etc are reaching the people, so why not discuss how you can change ways to reach the ones that need reaching and stop bickering between doctrinal garbage that will NEVER ever stop. Because last time I checked TCC is reaching people in the most unchurched area in the united states. Raising up amazing leaders, bringing families together, bringing millions of dollars to missionaries, churches, people, making houses for 100s of foster children, donating food to thousands of families, expanding the Body of Christ, and reaching into the darkest areas of seattle to change peoples lives. Check the motive and heart of The City Church and the pastors and leaders and get back to me on how “doctrinally incorrect” they really are. It shouldn’t be a question of what you decipher the bible to say about little things, but about doing what Jesus gave to us as a goal. The Gospel, do as he did and reach everyone on the planet to know of him and to have real relationship with the person that matters the most.
By the way, the message “The Perfect Fit,” has really changed my life, and lead more than 200 people I know into a closer relationship with God; as well as unlocking the identity of who they are. Pastor Judah is the best youth pastor in the world, and I’ll be “brain-washed” by him, and my family will be too. Thought I’d add my two cents on that since everyone else stayed so well on topic… As doctrinally incorrect that you think it is…
August 14th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Quoting above:
“Because last time I checked TCC is reaching people in the most unchurched area in the united states. Raising up amazing leaders, bringing families together, bringing millions of dollars to missionaries, churches, people, making houses for 100s of foster children, donating food to thousands of families, expanding the Body of Christ, and reaching into the darkest areas of seattle to change peoples lives. Check the motive and heart of The City Church and the pastors and leaders and get back to me on how “doctrinally incorrect” they really are.”
That is complete BS. Dude, I was on staff at TCC and I know a lot more about what goes on there than you do. So please don’t try to remind me about the image that they are trying to generate, because you are completely wrong. Those millions of dollars are not going to missionaries, but to Wendell Smith’s 3 million dollar house, his condo in Maui, Judah’s million dollar house, their Nordstrom apparel, and to their Mercedes cars and Escalades. They are not ministers, but celebrities, and they live life as celebrities.
Hundreds of families are not being reached, but instead people are leaving smaller churches to attend City Church because of its “institutional capabilities.” Further, they promote the same view of spirituality as that in “The Secret,” validate the exploitative economic system of capitalism, and perpetuate the evangelical stereotype of uneducated conservatism. blah
August 14th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Wow, AGAIN slandering their family when they have done nothing but amazing things in the name of God. If you are so well knowledged on the Smith family and all of their faults then why not mention the fact that they are blessed very often. No, you have to pretend like you know them and make their name sound bad so people on here can judge them before knowing the real truth.
Let us just get into the real truth of the matter. I shouldn’t have to do this since you know so much about TCC and the Smith family. Pastor Judah was given both his BMW and his Escalade. So his BMW, was a gift from a guy who wanted to bless Pastor Judah. In return one of my really good friends on his 16th birthday was given this car. That really portrays this super selfish man you’re speaking! This blessing brought upon him the Escalade. He never said he needed a car. A man in the church approached him because God told him to and he gave as a blessing. His house was under the same thing. A blessing from someone because of his influence. Pastor Judah receives more blessings and amazing things because of the influence and blessing he gives to others. It’s the fruit of his ministry. He gave out over 5,000 copies of his book Dating Delilah at GC Conference. I wonder why he would do that; because of the unselfishness and desire for young people to have power over lust and know God like never before. Pastor Judah has given away more things then I can list in the physical realm. Doesn’t that mean biblically it makes sense that he receives much blessing? I don’t even need to get into the things he gives spiritually and in preaching. The fruit of his ministry is amazing, and his financial blessings are no doubt because of his heart and sincerity in ministering the word of God. So next time you make assumptions about an amazing man’s integrity make sure you have all the facts.
Then it’s on to Pastor Wendell. Just as much blessing falls upon him. Pastor Wendell did start the largest church in Seattle, again one of the most un-churched areas in the United States. You honestly are going to tell me that he is stealing money from the church to buy his house? What about all the books he sells? All the money he receives from that? How
about when he sold his other house? Shouldn’t he have received money from that? You can
question his doctrine but don’t question pastor Wendell’s integrity! As far as working
for the church and being on staff. How can you expect me to believe you when you so self-righteously judge someone for the blessings they have received? I believe the bible calls that coveteous.
And for all the things the church doesn’t do. I could honestly write down about 10 pages worth of things the church actually spends their money on that grows the body of Christ. Donating money to struggling churches, even if those churches disagree with our doctrine, helping families in need, putting campuses in areas that need them the most, distributing food to families that cannot afford to eat (they have a warehouse and a specific ministry just for doing so). They even used a valuable
plot of land to build houses for foster families who need a place they can live; things like I said before. Not to mention them having more than 70 paid staff. It’s incredible what they do. I’ve personally seen 100,000s of thousands of dollars given to pastors from India, China, and the Philippines. It’s really disheartening hearing you judge and stereotype them because they have nice things. I don’t want to get mad about this but its really frustrating when you accuse innocent amazing people of doing terrible things.
August 14th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Tanner, the argument you just laid out is that because they gained a lot of stuff we should not question their intentions…
Here is a scripture that I think applies to your line of thinking…
1 Timothy 6:5
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Your whole argument is supposing that their gain equates goliness…and it is ANTI-BIBLICAL. You did a great job of describing them as these type of men that Peter described:
2 Peter 2:3
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:
Feigned words = prosperity gospel
Merchandise = beamers, escalades, 2.3 Million dollar house, designer clothes
Covetousness = you give to the pastor, you will get a 100 fold return on your “investment”
They make a lot of money off of you through books and gifts…by teaching the false prosperity gospel…saying that gain is godliness.
What a sad, sad heresy. The church is reduced back to the money exchangers that Jesus cleared out 2000 years ago.
August 14th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
this is embarrassing, even for me, what about all the the unsaved people reading this! no wonder they’re still unsaved cuz they see us “christians” that we can’t just talk about our own lives! basically this is all slander and gossip! I mean, what’s the purpose of this! just to say Judah Smith is wrong? ok u said it, do you feel better now? if you do great if you don’t great! yeah I know I’m waisting my time, yeah I know ur gonna say some nasty comeback, but that’s all I’m saying! and props to all of you defending Judah Smith, because that just shows your love towards people! :) because that’s what we should be doing, be kind! Jesus didn’t even talk about people! isn’t he our example? anyways I’m off if u reply to this I rather you don’t cuz I won’t ever read it, God Bless
August 14th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
To Vicky,
The words of Jesus…I think he did talk about people. Read all of Matthew 23…
I hope that comeback wasn’t too nasty for you.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
ps craig the philosopher! Does being a janitor make you staff? Just wondering…
My last post… I will leave you with one thought. In the words of the late great Nacho Libre. “You dont think I know a buttload about the gospel, but I doooo.”
August 14th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I quote scripture, you resort to Nacho Libre…very fitting. Very sad.
August 14th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Vicky, the truth is not sexy. It’s a hard pill to swallow. Exposing the TCC for wrong doctrine is something that Christians must do to other Christians just as you wouldn’t let your children play in the street. They hate you for it but it’s because you love them.
I often hear people say “well TCC has fruit.” Fruit of the Spirit is faithfulness. We must be as faithful to God’s word as possible. Otherwise, we dare not say we have fruit.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Wow. First, yes, being a janitor did made me staff. I even had a nice little blue shirt that had staff on it. In some ways, being a janitorial supervisor exposed me to more information about the church than anyone else. I was the one who saw a lot of the dirt. I was the one taking the Mercedes in to get cleaned when it was already clean anyways, etc, etc.
Sorry Tanner, but if I had time I could write out all of the things that Judah owns that he BOUGHT. He spends thousands on his clothes by the way. As my friends above have already noted, just because he was given those things does not justify their corrupt view of so-called blessing.
Oh, and by the way, Mars Hill is far larger than City Church, and it is also actually in SEATTLE not Kirkland, and it is even younger than TCC, and they don’t pack their opening services with leaders to give the impression on the TV screen that they are growing.
Anyways, I don’t want to argue with this kid anymore. I don’t even know who you are, other than that you were an intern… well so was I, for two years. So were countless people I know who were once leaders, but either left or were asked to leave because of their slight disagreements.
Hopefully, the City Church will eventually collapse because they cannot keep leaders in the church. What are they going to do when their pastor dies and people are going to be so shocked and shaken because they were fed lies about bodily healing? Shame. What’s going to happen to all that property? I hope that Mars Hill is up to the task of helping out all the people that have had to (and will have to) run to them for help.
September 3rd, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Word of God is Good Let His light shine all the way till the end Peace to All. Judah rock on Craig rock on . Jesus saves all who confess his name not how to confess it.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:46 am
B real, sup man. I have a question for you about your reply if you don’t mind. You said “Jesus saves all who confess his name not how to confess it.”
Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses confess Jesus name. Are they in truth or error though and how can we know for sure?
Also, I would say that Scripture teaches that belief in Christ is one of many proofs of our salvation, but not necessarily that salvation is initiated by it. It is a common misconception which plagues the Church today that mere profession of faith in Christ = salvation.
You may agree or disagree. Either way, I’m just curious where you stand. Thanks.
October 10th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Wow…. i just wanted to say that I love all of you guys/girls… and i pray that all of you would not only be hearers of the Word but doers also… It’s important as children of God that we realize we’re on the same team… Jesus said that HE would build HIS CHURCH (singular)… we are all members of the same Body of Christ… this type of talk is not edifying or encouraging for anyone who is truly trying to please God… strife, contentions, envy, comparing, measuring, and boasting are not for the Church… let the WORD OF GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT correct Judah Smith if he be in the wrong… It’s the Holy Spirits job to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment…. not ours… Grace and mercy…
November 8th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Peace to all! forgive me for talking about myself yet bear with me as actually this is a testimony of Jesus Christs’ answer to me on the original scripture in question through a series of events. A couple of years ago i was going thru a very hard time and i didnt understand why and i saw no end in site so one nite feeling very desperate i knelt at the end of my bed & prayed “Lord you tell us in your word that all who are heavy laden can come to you and you will give us rest and Lord you know i am yours and i am so tired Lord & i see no end in site, Lord please give me rest …” that nite i dreamt[in brief} of being in a war zone, being in a house looking ouT at a fellow christian known to me talking with the enemy this person brought the enemy into the house and then we had to escape, my escape was awesome but for another time .. the enemy pursued & i was caught by a man whose arms were around me in such a way my arms were pinned by my side & all i could do was struggle as i struggled i began to realize this man wasnt hurting me & he was talking as i relaxed a little & listened he was saying ‘tania its ok & its going to be alright’ over & over & as i listened to his voice & words i began to relax until i was limp in his grip: then i awoke in absolute peace and i said ‘Lord was that you!’ i didnt understand the dream yet, but i had peace & i felt sure it was the Lord who had captured me! Well shortly after everything got so much worse and i was a mess,people laid hands on me praying for deliverance, those close to me preached about faith at me, i couldnt read my bible anymore as i couldnt focus, prayer was difficult yet through it all i told the Lord i know you told me its ok & its goin to be ok weeks passed & i could not function past laying down. as well as reminding Him of his word to me i told Him im in that boat with you Lord & im laying at your feet Sleeping with you because we are in the Fathers hand. after 3 months much to my horror i was forcibly medicated for panic disorder & after a couple of weeks i began to be able to read my bible again. During a study the Lord opened my eyes to my being free from the law & while i was busy praising him i saw calvary & what he revealed to me was astounding he showed me what he had done for us on the cross at calvary; that there were 2 parts that along with him dying for us that i also died with him being not only forgiven sin but now delivered from it: in brief i saw the finished work of the cross then i saw the works of the flesh not just in me but in the body of christ & i knew what an offence they were to him & as i was apologising suddenly i saw all the way back that he had acconted for our fleshly works knowing we would do them in the first; & this humbled me so mightily His great love for us that everything inside of me bowed down its the only way i can describe it & no longer did i sit on the thrown but internally i felt myself looking up to the One to whom the thrown rightfully belonged _MY LORD & MY GOD. Over the following week He brought back to my mind the dream & I understood the reason HE held me still was because I didnt need to move that he had already done the work that what i needed to do was learn to rest in HIM (which doesnt mean i do nothing..but wil explain another day) & lastly that week He reminded me of my prayer that night & he told me that this was the rest he said he would give us that the work is DONE – IT IS FINISHED that we need not struggle in the flesh but through Him & by Him by His grace learn to walk with Him! It is a journey taken day by day in relationship With HIM!!!
November 8th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
We are all called to study 2 Timothy 2;15(in the greek it means to make effort,be prompt or earnest – do(give)diligence,be diligent,endeavour,labour,study) What are we called to study but the word of God ,it will do no good on That Day to say but so & so preached that & i believed him/her. While they will be accountable before God & to a greater degree for their teachings, individually we are called to study; ask the Holy Spirit to teach you ask and keep on asking what scritures mean ,read the whole chapter dont take it out of context! from the very beginning of reading his word i was told by a friend to ask Him,to take it literally that the Holy Spirit would teach & lead me to all truth & He has not only kept me from getting caught up in erroneous teachings but taught me so much. I love the word of God it excites & invigorates me.
Could i suggest that it might be better for all if only the teachings in question be brought to the forum instead of naming the preachers as not only should we be praying for them as part of the body but also much of what i hear i truly believe to be more carnal than demonic in nature{as what the spirit of antichrist teaches is clearly laid out in scripture) and if more christians were in the word of God asking the holy spirit there would never have been a foothold/platform for such teachings to takehold in the firstplace. Make no mistakes we are our brothers keepers & we are accontable! God Bless.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:08 am
Craig,
Your philosophy seems so worldy man – I understand biblical context and hermenautics but it almost seems like you are so stinkin arrogant… never recognizing the successes, only the failures. You are talking about ONE message buddy. Where’s your arguement for all of his other messages, huh? Why key into and make this huge deal about ONE message? Dont you see? (of course you dont; and you think that i dont see either, right? cuz i dont have a doctorate maybe… hhhmm), dont you see that his heart isnt to confuse people, and make the scriptures work for his own good? [and also, maybe the fact he used "me" and "I" so much is because its the "me" and "I" that has been transformed by Jesus and there's nothing more powerful than a life testimony! and also, remember he's speaking to young people, who are passionte, not old dried up religious folks like yourselves, full of knowledge, having the "form of godliness" but DENYING the POWER OF GOD that can make you godly] “The Perfect Fit” is a message that stirs young people to not get caught up in things that DONT FIT, but to find Jesus and that JESUS fulfills us and calls us to a ministry, a life of purpose that is the perfect fit. So why you gotta get all crazy and crack on one sermon bro? whats the deal? Lets hear it for mr. philosopher of the year, why dont you make an arguement for ALL of his other sermons, after all, He’s been preaching since 2003 and all his messages are on the website.. or could it be, there just isnt one? hhhmm
Like the person who just cant wait to point something BAD out in someone else, and ALWAYS has something NEGATIVE (by your terms “knowledgeable” or “sound”) to say; you just cant wait to call out Pastor Judah (who is an AMAZING man of God). What’s your problem dude? Show us the fruit of your ministry, other than causing arguements and division. Just shut up already. Geez.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Hi Daniel,
You said a lot of stuff, but I’ll stay on track with the scripture Judah mis-used for his sermon. You said:
My main point was how he mis-used the scripture in Mt 11 terribly. He took a scripture that told us to know the Father and let Jesus take the burden of sin and the law from us, and turned it into a works-based sermon. I am not sure what you think, but I believe the scriptures are not to be used to support anything we want, but to be taken as they were meant to be taken. I quit blogging on Judah’s sermons for 2 reasons, 1. I kinda like the guy (even though I think he is doctrinally wrong) and 2. I don’t have time to field all the adolescent insults I get from GC-ers.
I found your post pretty funny though, it fits the mold of insults I typically get from Judah-ites…
November 30th, 2008 at 1:22 am
I am not the Daniel from the last post. I am the soldier Daniel in Babylon (Iraq) fighting in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
I have not posted on this blog in several months – dang maybe its been a year – I have lost track of time. I got the email from the webpage with Brother Daniels comment.
I guess my only thought is this – Daniel, you are essentially erring in the same type of conduct that you are suggecting Craig is guilty of. Your statement that brother Criag is a “person who just cant wait to point something BAD out in someone else, and ALWAYS has something NEGATIVE to say”. I am not attempting to rebuke you, however, this is precisely what you did in your post.
Also, I have known Craig for half a decade and consider him a very close friend. He seeks the truth and loves Yashua the Messiah. Often times when believers seek truth whole heartedly they come across something that is in conflict with the Scripture. He and I have studied the Scriptures at length and many (many!) times have come to different conclusions. We are still good friends and enjoy talking with each other about theology and ministry. Iron sharpens iron. That is what this blog is supposed to be about – “doctrine talk” -talking/studying through doctrine. Sometimes this can be very hard because we know people (some who are dear to us) who are teaching and preaching “doctrines” that are opposed to the Scriptures. What is important is that the the ways of Yahweh and his Messiah found in Scripture come first. If we see that someone, something or an Assembly (church)is in error when handling the Word of Life, it our responsibility as believers to confront that error. There are varieties of ways in which to do this and this blog is just one of those ways – as you have certainly confirmed by posting such a rad statement!!
Brother Daniel, don’t give up being passionate for the search for truth. Your zeal is obvious and I wish you the best.
Shalom,
Brother Daniel
PS Tis the season to be studying the historical & religious orgins of chistmas (The Mass of Christ). . . I know, I know – I’m the grinch who stole Chistmas – I get that every year!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas
“Thus says YHWH: “Learn not the way of the nations . . . for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman, They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.” Yermeyahu (Jeremiah)10
November 30th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I found Daniel’s comment to be hilarious…you might even call it the perfect fit. It’s amazing how the names change but the comments stay the same…the arguements stay the same…they really build robots in these MFI churches.
My favorite quote was:
and also, remember he’s speaking to young people, who are passionte, not old dried up religious folks like yourselves, full of knowledge, having the “form of godliness” but DENYING the POWER OF GOD that can make you godly
How they get the Christian youth of America to constantly say “it’s more important to have good intentions than it is to be acurate” amazes me.
Good times.
November 30th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Let me add… “Those Mormons… they’re so passionate and on fire, living godly lives. Why do you criticize them so much concerning a few verses… lay off geez”
-the theology of the “Judah-ites,” (please don’t make me think… just indoctrinate me!)
December 16th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Imagine all the time we could be spending saving lost people, but instead, we’re more concerned with being critical of those who are doing more than we are to make sure people don’t go to hell.
December 16th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Derek, if you’re speaking about TCC, then I would disagree with you. TCC is NOT a church which preaches and teaches the clear, central, and crucial gospel message.
I personally would never recommend anyone even go there for that very reason because that reason should be the first reason on anyone’s list as to why they would attend a church. The church thrives off of something, but that something isn’t definitely NOT the gospel.
TCC next to never teaches on things like law, sin revealed through law, judgment, hell, etc. Read through Acts and see what gospel the Apostles teach. And as Romans 10 says “how can they believe unless they hear”. What they hear is crucial if there is going to be genuine believe and repentance. Where there is a half gospel, there will be self deceived believers.
December 16th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Cameron,
How were you hurt by The City Church? Really…just come out with it (perhaps you already have and I just didn’t catch it as I skimmed through the blog).
Everyone else on here that has something negative to say about The City Church and/or it’s Pastors, has a story to follow, depicting some encounter of unfair treatment from a City Church pastor. Suddenly, then their doctrine changes, their eyes are opened, and the church that they faithfully attended for 4 years is preaching herecy.
The math is simple. Someone gets offended, and that’s it. The church is wrong, controlling, preaching “half-gospel” and over-preaching prosperity. Isn’t there some “speck vs. plank” verse I should be quoting right about now? Hmmm.
The whole Gospel is that Jesus was the Son of God, fully God, and he came to earth in the form of a man. He healed the sick, cast out demons, and loved people. He preached repentance, forgiveness and mercy. He then died for our sins so that we wouldn’t have to. Because of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, you and I can be forgiven of our sins. We can repent, and be made whole. Just as well, we can fake it, having never made Christ our true Lord, never having truly believed that he died and rose again for our sins, never having truly confessed with our mouths AND believed in our hearts, in which case, we will go to hell.
Did I miss anything that equates to the “WHOLE” Gospel? Because this is the message that I consistenly hear at The City Church. More than I ever hear anything about how money will get me into heaven.
It’s obvious that the majority of the people on this board are reacting to something rather than seeking the scriptures with discernment, and in love.
I pray that God will heal your hurts and restore those parts of your life where you have been offended and felt betrayed.
December 16th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
It’s fascinating to me how you (I) can “Know” the Gospel without really “Knowing” the gospel. And it really is amazing when you wake up one day and realize that what you’ve been hearing for years may sound like the gospel but really is far far from it. Once you are able to see that you can begin your search to find the real gospel which is far more powerfull than TCC or CBC will ever understand.
This is what makes it so hard. They say all the right things. They have the right answers. But they don’t have the real thing.
The truth is, however, that if anyone currently attending these churches wants to look for the truth they will find it. As long as they are happy where they are at…trusting the BS that is preached there is nothing we can do.
The good news is that there are a lot of people out there praying for us…
December 16th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Oh, so now you are the one who gets to decide whether I have the real thing or not? Wow…we’re taking this blog thing to all new levels.
December 16th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Derek,
Allow me to first respond to some of your comments. How were you hurt by The City Church? Really…just come out with it
I fought within myself and lost sleep over making the decision to leave TCC. I spoke with 3 pastors about it and each conversation was very respectful. I have nothing personal against anyone. While I now think some of the things these pastors say at times is very silly and very off, I still appreciate much of what they did for me in those years.
Everyone else on here that has something negative to say about The City Church and/or it’s Pastors
People are people and there are always going to be offenses. Sadly enough, objective doctrine can become an excuse to to bad mouth those whom have offended them. Our assessments of a church’s adherence to Scripture should not be based on those things. It should not be personal, should be done with a patient spirit, yet remain absolutely firm on truth.
Isn’t there some “speck vs. plank” verse I should be quoting right about now? Hmmm.
This verse happens to be in the context of making sure you’re not doing that which you are condemning. If I am going around and watering down the gospel, then I should not condemn others for doing the same until I have removed the plank in my own eye.
Did I miss anything that equates to the “WHOLE” Gospel?
Scripturally, I would not disagree with anything you have said. But sometimes it’s not so much a matter of what is being said as much as it is what is not being said. In fact, this can be even more harmful. The gospel as it is presented in the book of Romans and Acts 2 and 17 begins with the bad news before grace is even mentioned. This bad news is that God is holy and just and we are not.
And not just that we are “sinful” and going to “hell”, but that ALL of our specific sins are touched on through God’s moral law (a reflection of His own moral character, Deut 5), and Hell is understood to be God’s own eternal wrath and punishment, because He loves Himself and loves justice (Rom 2:5). At TCC, they would agree to these things as Johnpaul pointed out, yet they do not fully embrace these truths as being equally important as understanding grace. Otherwise they would be equally emphasized.
It is mostly emphasized that God is standing by waiting for you to want Him to bless you. If TCC preached the gospel how it is presented in Romans and Acts, and done so often, many many people would start leaving just like they walked away from Christ. I guarantee it.
December 16th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Derek, here is an example of what I am specifically talking about in terms of the gospel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPZlzDTdSsE
This is Shai Linne, a reformed hip-hop artist, but I ask that you would listen to the substance of his message right after 2:30 min. Can you imagine the pastors at TCC talking in this way every Sunday? I can’t given the content of their audio archives on thecity.org. Maybe you can though.
December 16th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Cameron,
I appreciate your cordial approach to this conversation, and I understand where you’re coming from.
I’ve seen the video you posted and the passion is undeniable. I agree with the overall message there. What I will say about your reference to this video, however, is that church should not be limited to just the salvation message by itself. It should be the center point of the focus of the church, absolutely, but the fact is, once people give their lives to the Lord, there is a process of renewing the mind and transforming of the soul that needs to be instructed and taught. Making disciples is not limited to conversion. There is life after conversion, and in order to accurrately make disciples, real world issues and every day life must be discussed. More importantly, how God’s word relates to these every day issues must absolutely be addressed. These issues include finances, marriage, re-marriage and many others. Again, these people who are down-talking pastors because their messages don’t directly address sin, judgment and the like, and, heaven forbid, touch on tithing and giving, are being narrow-minded and in my opinion using it as a cop-out to cover up a deeper issue.
To disagree with teachings of a church is not wrong. I don’t agree with everything that’s said at any church I’ve ever been to. That is not my beef with this blog.
I have a problem, and I think God has a problem with calling someone out by name, and launching a virtual smear campaign against a ministry that has led thousands to Christ, fed thousands of hungry people, rescued neglected children and sewn hundreds of thousands more into other ministries, for the sake of the furtherance of the Gospel.
December 16th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Derek, it is a common misconception that the gospel is only for believers. If this were so, then Paul would have never written Romans 13-16. But what comes before Rom 13-16 but Rom 1-12. I would simply say that a church which doesn’t have a passion to see the most Biblical gospel proclaimed from the outset, is NOT a church which will even have healthy and genuine sanctification. The two are at odds! It can appear that this is happening, but without the real gospel being understood from the outset, and continually reminded of, it will no longer be the gospel which brings a Biblical understanding of one’s self, the real Christ, faithful evangelism (like the video), a full understanding of grace, and a real bases for sanctification, while all this will be replaced with something or someone else.
In today’s society it is often being replaced with therapy, behavior modifications, and silly traditions. If it is more emphasized that ‘God is waiting for you to want Him to bless you more’ than it is that ‘the most Biblical gospel is changing every single aspect of one’s life’, then one might need to read and understand the context of Rev 3:20.
You are separating the gospel and sanctification. I believe the two are distinguishable, yet inseparable. This is all the more reason why I would never go to a church that isn’t passionate about it. I would rather drive 1 hour to a church which loved the awesomely Bible centered gospel, even if a church which preached a watered down gospel was across the street and begging me to attend. :T
December 16th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Hi Derek,
I don’t blame you for being upset with someone blogging negatively about your Church. I would be too…
I think you need to know that I wasn’t upset or hurt by leadership at the church, I just found out by reading scripture that the Gospel was ignored. I heard preachers like Paul Washer (you should look him up on Youtube) and Paris Readhead, and realized I had been fed a bunch of hogwash. I didn’t make a stink, I didn’t talk to members at the church, I met with Judah a couple of times and respectuflly left (my departure email is posted).
I think Cameron summs up the main reason why we oppose TCC – because the Gospel is mostly ignored there, and often used as a stepping stool for material gain (prosperity gospel).
I have this blog, not because I wish harm or have a vendetta against the leaders of the church, but because I long for biblical repentance and reconciliation. There is no chance of reconciliation and repentance if nobody is willing to shine a light on the false teachings.
If I am wrong in my assessment of TCC in my specific posts, then please show me where I am in error so I might repent.
Regarding the blog, I believe it is in the vein of Romans 16:17-18:
It may seem harsh, but I believe it to be true.
December 17th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Craig,
Whether it’s my church or not, it’s upsetting that any man decides he’s suddenly worthy to play God. We’re supposed to be united in Christ regardless of our differences on doctrinal and secondary issues.
You are, in fact, the one creating a division (per the Revelation scripture that you cited). I see the pastors of TCC, CFC and others reaching out to connect with ministries that don’t agree with them, and hurting people who don’t know Christ. We had Mark Driscoll at the City Church on Saturday teaching a church planting class. By the way, he wasn’t trying to get us to change our doctrine. I think if he and other pastors who have taught these classes recently, really thought TCC was teaching heresy, he probably wouldn’t teach a class that encourages the members to go plant more churches that teach and believe the way TCC does. You might want to ask him about that, next time you see him. By your standards, it sounds like he has some explaining to do.
The point is, TCC has made a constant effort, successfully, to reach out and unite with other ministries, and continues to grow. Blogs like this and people like you, pit yourself against a ministry and specific people, and immediately draw a line in the sand that causes a clear division.
We’ll obviously have to agree to disagree here, respectfully.
I don’t think it’s biblically sound to tell your congregation to go out and have a beer after church, but out of love for certain people and a respect for men of God who, at the end of the day, are reaching lost people in the city and bringing them to Christ, I would never publically slander them.
Maybe you need to take a look at your own efforts and say, “Where am I putting my time and energy? How many people have been brought to Christ through my ministry?” Maybe it’s tens of thousands like TCC, MH, CBC, T.D. Jakes, and all the others you’ve slammed on this blog.
December 17th, 2008 at 8:49 am
What’s wrong with having a beer after church?
December 17th, 2008 at 8:51 am
Oh boy…here we go.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Let’s just say that a co-worker of mine who’s a new Christian and works at a popular pub/brewerey as a server, spotted his pastor having a beer with some fellas in the bar on Saturday night and felt horribly let down. His drinking was a huge part of his problem prior to being saved, and he just felt it was a bad example for this pastor to be throwin’ them back with the fellas. Now he won’t be attending, he’s confused, and questioning his decision(s).
In short…absolutely nothing wrong with having a beer after church. I do, however, take seriously Paul’s urging in Romains 14, to not put up a stumbling block and in Romans 12 which says to not be conformed to the ways of the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
My point is, we can’t be busy criticizing doctrine while we’re defending actions that could be and in some cases, are causing people to stumble.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:24 am
So Derek,
You say we can’t be busy criticizing doctrine, where do you get that notion? What actions am I defending that could cause people to stumble (or were you referring to the beer issue)?
I saw more people stumble over the money issues at TCC than anywhere else. Why doesn’t that same standard apply to that? If a pastor having at $2.3 million dollar house will cause the world to say pastors are just in it for the money, why don’t you apply the same standard to that as you do beer drinkers? Out of love, why can’t the pastor live in a $500K house so not to give the unsaved cause to think they are greedy (and many do think that).
December 17th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Derek, I went to Mars Hill for a couple years after I went to TCC. Their theology there is so sound and so awesomely gospel and Christ centered that it makes one think God is schizophrenic when coming back to TCC. In fact Driscoll has vehemently taught against what TCC teaches, just may not have addressed THEM specifically by name, but nevertheless their exact teachings. If you think that we need to follow in Mark’s footsteps then you might be in for a shock. Mark has outright condemned so many false teachers and half truth tellers from the pulpit that this blog can’t even hold a candle to!
<His drinking was a huge part of his problem prior to being saved, and he just felt it was a bad example for this pastor to be throwin’ them back with the fellas. Now he won’t be attending, he’s confused, and questioning his decision(s).
This guy is a new Christian. I hope that once he starts reading and understanding Scripture more that he’ll understand it’s not what goes into a man that is bad, but what comes out of his heart. Causing a brother to stumble would be tempting him with HIS sin, while someone else may not be tempted with it. I’m sure that pastor would never ask him for a drink, considering his past. That doesn’t mean the pastor can’t have a few beers, even at his bar.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:27 am
And for crying out loud, the guy works at a brewery! What does he expect?
December 17th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Craig,
Here is absolutely an area where we completely agree.
I don’t think it looks good either, when pastors have those posessions to such an extreme extent. However, that does not make him a false prophet or a heretic.
This is my whole point, that you guys keep missing. We can argue all day about the issues, and we won’t change each others’ minds. There will be some we agree on, and some we disagree on. I think those discussions are healthy and good.
In the end, however, my problem with this blog is that you’re taking it upon your self to call someone else a heretic, and condemning the ministry of that person. Let me repeat that I do not have a problem with disagreement on these issues. I do not take issue with that because I disagree on some issues as well. However, I do not call other pastors heretics, who differ on some of these secondary doctrinal issues.
Absolutely, out of love, my opinion is that pastors shouldn’t have multi-million dollar houses. We agree on that. Just like the example of drinking that I gave earlier.
We just disagree on the judgmental approach to calling someone a heretic, etc.
I don’t need to validate myself by judging the minstry of others, who have done more than I to bring lost people into the Kingdom.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Craig,
The house is probably only worth about $500k now considering the current economy ! !
December 17th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Cameron,
Sorry, but I’m not going to tell a new Christian, “Tough Beans…you should already know better than to be offended by your pastor drinking.”
It is our responsibility to set ourselves apart from the world.
I won’t even argue this with you Cameron, because you’re irrational and completely taking scripture out of context in your argument.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Derek,
I think we have come to the crux of the issue. You say they do more good than harm, I say they do way too much harm. I don’t think doing some good deeds will undo the harm they are doing/have done.
Now you have questioned what I do for the Kingdom. I only talk about this to show you how they are doing harm. I preach the gospel on the street. While sharing the gospel with people who are unsaved, they don’t know the gospel and I get the privileged of telling them for the first time. The worst part is when I meet someone from the city church, most of the time they don’t know the gospel. They know about the secondary issues you talk about, but when it comes to the central message of salvation through Christ they simply don’t understand the message. One of the people encountered on the streets was an intern (about 4 weeks ago), he thought he could form the world around him by the words that come out of his mouth (heresy), but he didn’t understand the doctrine of justification (the one that saves our soul).
This is the whole problem, this is why I blog.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:50 am
True…sad, but true.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Derek, the guy works in a brewery and he has a drinking problem!? He’s asking to be offended from the get go here. Am I taking crazy pills?
1 Cor 8 says not to do something if someone who is weak will repeat it, NOT merely see you do it. 1 Cor 10 says do not do something WITH someone who is weak, otherwise they will offend their conscience. Neither of these is the scenario above. I believe you are the one who might be reading beyond the text.
I wouldn’t tell the guy “tough beans” but I would point him to scripture. Or tell him to stop working in a brewery.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:04 am
You dont have to tell the new Chistian “tough beans”. Just be kind to him and share with him what the Scripture teaches about the subject of alcohol – that it (particularly wine) is a gift from Yahweh to make mens hearts glad! And that when abused it can lead to some pretty nasty sins.
“YHWH causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb (canabis included?) for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine (beer too?) that maketh glad the heart of man” Ps 104:14
“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the YHWH thy Elohim, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household” Dev 14:26
“So Yahshua came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine.” John 4
Blessings Brothers . . . Be Kind
December 17th, 2008 at 10:08 am
I wouldn’t include canabis. We are not to get drunk, thus why would we get stoned (apart from medicinal purposes)? This is another forum though.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Okay, I get it now.
When it comes to drinking, it’s the new Christian’s responsibility not to be offended, but when it comes to the 2 million dollar house, it’s all on the Pastor.
Got it. This confirms that I’m done here. The double-standard and irrational arguing are making it impossible to have healthy discussion.
Craig, fair enough on the intern story, though I will call “bogus” on your factual statement that City Church attendees don’t know what it means to be saved. And when you say they don’t know “the Gospel,” you’re obviously insinuating that you’re the be-all, end-all for what the definition of “The Gospel” is, which you may want to lay out for me.
Additionally, when something is in the scripture, don’t call it heresy. Mark 11:23 and Proverbs 18:21 are REAL scriptures and are just the two that immediately come to mind when discussing the issue of the words that we use to, as you say, “Shape our world.”
Not heresy.
Again, there is no rational reasoning in these discussions and being so quick to call something heresy that’s clearly supported by scripture, really scares me.
I appreciate the 24 hours of discussion, but now I’m realizing that there’s a lot of assumption being stated as fact and a lot of twisting of the messages taught at TCC to support your attacks of “heresy.”
Let’s all continue to pray for one another and build each other up.
All the best in Prayer,
Derek
December 17th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Medicinal use, of course!
I understand your argument, however I do not understand the conclusion.
My question is, if one may partake in alcohol for recreational or celebratory reasons why should he be forbidden the same blessing from canabis?
I am not advocating canabis use, I have my own reservations. It is a plant that YHWH created and blessed and called “good” and I wonder what the reason was. This may be a subject that you post on your blog cameron. Let me know if you do.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:11 am
I think you are piecing together 2 different people’s comments to form this conclusion. I believe it is the Christians responsibility to not offend in both circumstances.
I never said, nor would I say that all City Church attendees don’t know what it means to be saved…just most of them I run into. I know plenty of them that do know the basics of the Gospel, but most of them learned it before they went to TCC (the ones I personally know).
In regards to Mark 11:23, I think this is an excellent explanation of what I believe on the scripture:
Understanding Mark 11:23
I think we can agree on the dangers of subtle shifts of scriptural understanding. Paul told Timothy to guard his doctrine closely because it will save his soul and those who hear him (1 Timothy 4:16). Even Satan used God’s word to tempt Jesus, and Eve in the garden. The danger of how TCC uses Mark 11:23 is how their application of the scripture takes the focus off “have faith in God” to have faith in words, or have faith in faith.
Maybe you know of a better explanation of that scripture, if so, please share it with me.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Derek,
When it comes to drinking, it’s the new Christian’s responsibility not to be offended, but when it comes to the 2 million dollar house, it’s all on the Pastor
Derek, I’m not painting with that broad of a brush. I’m looking at this on a case by case bases. Given what you said about the scenario of the pastor going into the brewery, I don’t see anything un-biblical about that. And the guy works at a brewery for crying out loud! Why is he so offended? This is like saying a Christian who is against the prosperity gospel works for a prominent bank, makes a lot of money, and sells giant loans. Then turns around and gets offended because P. Wendell walks in asking for one for their new campus.
Daniel, I’ve got a friend who I discuss that very issue with a lot. I will let you know if I do blog on that one. :)
December 28th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Craig, I wish you success, favor, and anointing on your street preaching.
If I may be so bold: Let the churches alone.(TCC and CBC) They are fulfilling the great commission, the same as you. (just in different ways.)
It sounds like you never attended an Encounter there, but I know that can’t be the case if you were on staff. If so, you know that surety of death for sin, the sacrifice of the cross, and the sanctification by the blood of Christ is the central message.
Prosperity, Healing, Deliverance, etc… all come from the cross of Christ.
Judah and Co. are doing a good job there, many lives saved! That’s the whole point.
Don’t be a gossip or slanderer. You save nobody that way and you bring division in the body of Christ.
The Word says that no sin goes uncovered, so if your theories about these Pastors are correct, the Lord will sort them out in the end.
Just focus on what you are called to do.
Blessings!
A brother from another MFI Spirit filled church in CA.
December 29th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Hopper, with all due respect. I think I have laid out why I think their doctrines are dangerous, and deadly. Please, before trying to tell me to stop blogging, please show me where I am wrong. I have wrestled in prayer and questioning myself for having this blog, but I am convinced that what I am doing is exposing serious doctrinal error at TCC (I don’t know about your MFI church).
I don’t think all that matters is winning converts. The question is what are you converting them into, and is the message preached the same one Jesus and the Apostles preached. Mormons do a great job getting followers…but I think you would agree they preach a different gospel. I think the new prosperity gospel you mentioned is warned of in the bible, and much more seductive because it is mascaraing as the truth to deceive the elect (if possible).
The blog is filled with the reasoning I used to come to my conclusions, using a lot of scripture. I have had a lot of people come on the blog and say I am sinning by having the blog, but none will tell me why I am wrong in opposing their false doctrines (using scripture, not pointing to my motives).
The whole foundation for the prosperity gospel is laid out by Wendell in this post…I encourage you to tell me why I am wrong in rejecting his interpretation of the scriptures used…
http://www.doctrinetalk.com/?p=59
I think supporters of the prosperity gospel would have at least a little credibility if they would take the time to answer serious criticisms of their biblical interpretation. At this point it seems to me they don’t defend their doctrines because there is no real defense. Their only defense so far is to say I am a bitter back-biter.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Craig,
I for one don’t think you’re a back-biter. The “bitter” part, only you and God know. Although one could look at the fruit to know the tree, I am reserving judgment in terms of what’s going on in your heart. Again, that’s between you and God.
What I find interesting is your broad label of the “prosperity doctrine.” You can take an email that a Pastor writes you and interpret it however you want, but please, do tell…what is YOUR definition of the prosperity gospel?
I really am curious. If you want to talk scriptures, I can quote several that talk of God’s desire for his children to prosper and the plans he has for us regarding prosperity in Spirit, Soul and Body. I know you know these scriptures as well as there are several. So what part of the Bible gets so drastically misinterpreted?
December 30th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Hi Derek,
Here is a post about one of Wendell Smith’s sermons on the subject…let me know what you think…
http://www.doctrinetalk.com/?p=59
I have a lot of posts on the subject, feel free to correct me where I am wrong in interpreting their own words.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Derek,
Here is another post I did that you might want to read…
http://www.doctrinetalk.com/?p=74
December 30th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Okay, so what I’m seeing as I glance through these posts, including the one you just sent me, is that it comes down to an interpretation of scripture, right?
So this isn’t really an issue that could ever be compared to one like the Mormon church as you stated in a previous recent post. They’ve created their own book with a completely different testament of Jesus that draws and cites no standard Bible scripture whatsoever.
Really, what your arguments boil down to here are that Pastor Wendell is interpreting these scriptures wrong, and you’re interpreting them all right. Right? Correct me if I’m wrong, please. What you’re saying and what you’ve clearly laid out is that you’re interpreting these scriptures the right way and the Pastor is interpreting them wrong.
So what do you think the benefit would be to a church to purposly mislead people on an issue like this? Same with Word of Faith. When people actually see these principles work in their life as a result of reading the scripture and believing in Faith for these things to come to pass, and give God the glory, how does that benefit the Church and how does it harm the attendee?
You’ll never convince me that tithing and prosperity are not Biblical principals because they have worked in my life and I can find plenty of scripture to support this. Not to mention all the other people who have seen God’s provision in their life as a result of these things.
I just want to make sure we’re clear here. This is an issue of interpreting existing scripture, not creating new scripture or manufacturing words and phrases that are not in the Bible, correct?
December 30th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Answer: $$$$$
December 30th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
YES
So who was right…is my interpretation correct or Wendell’s?
December 30th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Okay, so they dupe their members into paying loads of money to the church using scriptures that only exist apparently in my Bible and not yours, all for the purpose of taking that money and sending it to other churches, the mission field, giving it to the poor, helping other ministries stay out of bankruptcy, and rescuing foster children?
So the motives are selfless by way of selfishness?
And by the way, all of your analysis regarding the Pastor’s messages seem to start with…”here’s how I think this verse should really be interpreted…” or “in a nutshell, Pastor Wendell was saying…” You’re taking some pretty interesting liberties by, first of all, implying that you personally have the right interpretation just because….you’re YOU…and second, you’re paraphrasing something at your own liberty and then criticizing the paraphrased summary.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
YES
So who was right…is my interpretation correct or Wendell’s?
I rest my case…
Now we know what this is really about.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Derek, you see…the problem isn’t that I need to be right, but NOBODY who follows the prosperity gospel will honestly answer the charges that they misuse scripture. That’s the problem. You won’t even tell me that I am wrong, and explain why. Why not?
In the flesh, I would love it if God’s plan were to make us all rich and powerful in this life, but the Bible simple does not say that. I believe those who willingly follow the false doctrines of the prosperity movement are in a dangerous place.
Don’t catholics, mormons and muslims do this with their money?
December 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
“Rich and Powerful”…you didn’t get this listening to a TCC message. Those are your words.
You’re wrong because you’re ignoring scripture that clearly states God wants his people to have abundant life and his plan is to prosper us.
There’s my argument. The reason nobody will get specific with you is because you’re ignoring the obvious and taking these scriptures that address prosperity directly, and giving your “interpretation” of what they mean. Why would anyone want to dive deeper into that discussion with you when you won’t acknowledge the scriptures that have been put in front of you.
It’s a waste of time dude. That’s why. Nobody wants to play your game. When you’re the guy writing the blog and you’ve become so consumed with disproving people, and have made it your mission to be critical of other people, you don’t see the forest from the trees. From the outside looking in, you’re embarrasing yourself. There’s nothing inviting about your blog or your message. The message you’re conveying in all of your posts is, “This doctrine is wrong…tell me why it’s right…and I’ll take your answer and tell you why I think you’re wrong..” All that tells people is that you want to argue. Unfortunately, I’ve found that out the hard way.
December 30th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Derek, when I went to TCC and attended the Prosperity with a purpose conferences, P. Wendell would usually walk through the OT and throw out a bunch of texts which use the words “abundance” and “prosperity” in them to back his doctrine.
This is called “proof-texting”. No one should have a problem with proof-texting when the context of the verse cited does in fact support how it’s being used. Yet, if the context does not support how the text is being used, this is a negative case of proof-texting.
With this in mind, it’s worth noting that probably all of the verses P. Wendell has used in the OT to support the prosperity doctrine is out of context. Many of those verses reveal how God is dealing specifically with the nation of Israel. It is ‘descriptive’ of His dealings with ‘them’, not ‘prescriptive’ of the ‘entire church age’.
It’s also worth noting that only a recent minority of Christians in Church history have held to these type of teachings. The majority of the world, let alone Christians, have never been extremely wealthy. Many people at TCC aren’t even wealthy. They tithe to TCC, and the pastors of TCC are in fact very wealthy b/c of them along with those who attend who are very wealthy. Truthfully, there are those who are righteous rich, unrighteous rich, righteous poor, and unrighteous poor.
God may will either righteous rich or righteous poor any something in between. Either way, we are to use what He has given us wisely and thankfully. The idea that God wants to bless everyone with material health and wealth without exception, and that we just need to want Him to first, is an extremely unbalanced approach to Scripture. It is a distraction from the real gospel, and the Holy Spirit’s real message and mission.
Many prosperity preachers assume that we have full access to all the atonement’s blessing’s now. We wont fully experience all of its blessings until the Resurrection.
December 30th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Cameron,
You obviously do not attend TCC. Your assessment of what they teach, as well as your “out of left field” guess as to the economic status of its members is completely flawed, so for me to respond beyond this would be a huge waste of time.
God Bless man.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Derek,
You come on the blog to slam me, but when I point you to the places where I refut the poor handling of scripture you just tell us it is a waste of time.
I’m sorry you feel that searching and discussing scripture is a waste of time if the views don’t match those of yours.
December 31st, 2008 at 8:32 am
Craig,
Look at your first sentence…”the poor handling of scripture…” That’s the problem. You’re calling it poor handling of scripture but you don’t have a reference point to justify that it’s poor handling. It’s just because you say so, or you interpret it different. There’s nothing in the Word of God that cites misinterpretation of scripture as Heresy. If your theory and method of application were correct, then 99% of pastors are heretics because I can guarantee we all misinterpret some things in the Bible.
I’m not on here to slam you. I know who you are. I’ve met you before. I think you’re a nice guy. This is nothing personal. If someone close to me put up a blog like this, I would have the same conversation. A pastor reaches out to you to discuss some of the critical issues you’ve raised to him, and what do you do? You take that entire email, post it online with his full name (and without yours, by the way), and pick it apart. It’s a cowardly move. That’s all. It’s really about trying to reach out to you and tell you to stop embarassing yourself. The doctrine stuff is a whole other issue. That’s not the purpose of my discussion. I’ll never win that with you because you take the scriptures that mention prosperity and you pick them apart and say why “to you” those don’t mean that, therefore they’re wrong. Nobody’s interested in arguing if your standard for interpretation is going to be your personal feeling or opinion. It’s a waste of everyone’s time. That’s what I mean. We’ll just go round and round and not get anywhere.
December 31st, 2008 at 9:05 am
Derek,
I know you think it is a waste of time, but we have not gone “round and round” about scripture because you refuse to even discuss one.
If you think this is an embarrassment then fine. I don’t particularly enjoy having the blog, and I’m not doing it for my own enjoyment. I do it for those who have come to the blog because the know something is not right with the City Church doctrines and want to research it more.
I don’t think I will change your mind either, but at least I am willing to pull up the scriptures and defend my beliefs. Its not about winning and losing, its about searching scripture like the Bereans and being honest with how God wanted the scriptures to be used. After we both post our view we can then agree to disagree…but it seems you are intent on making me feel shame for speaking out against a new christian movement (about 50 years old) that I think is dangerous and deadly. I use scriptures to base my theology and actions, but you come and tell me that I am cowardly and embarrassing myself…based on your opinion. Forgive me for not listening.
You seem to think you can peer into my motives and heart to know I won’t listen, but I will tell you I do this with the fear of the Lord, and know that if I am speaking against a true move of God I am in trouble…so if you can bring scripture that will show me that my reading of scripture is incorrect, then you would be doing me a favor. You don’t seem to be able to do that (or just don’t care enough to take the time).
On the other side of the coin, if my view of scripture is correct, then those who are seduced by the prosperity gospel are in big trouble. This isn’t a game about being right or wrong, it is really life and death. Jesus said to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, speaking of their doctrine…telling us that bad doctrine is like leaven that will spread throughout the whole lump. Paul told Timothy to watch his doctrine closely because it will save his soul and those who hear him…very serious stuff.
I would welcome a good discussion on why we think certain scriptures support or oppose the prosperity movement..and you know what, we could end up disagreeing after the whole thing is said and done. I don’t think that would be a waste of time, because one of us is wrong…and it could be me. If you think it is a waste of time…then stop posting.
P.S. I found it amusing how you said “I’m not going to slam you” then later in the same paragraph said I am cowardly and an embarrassment…I got a good laugh out of that. “Its nothing personal…but your cowardly”. That sounds personal to me.
December 31st, 2008 at 9:22 am
Derek, You obviously do not attend TCC. Your assessment of what they teach, as well as your “out of left field” guess as to the economic status of its members is completely flawed, so for me to respond beyond this would be a huge waste of time.
What??!! I said I DID attend the TCC. Put your glasses back on or get some. For starters most of the Interns are poor my friend! I once was one and knew them all so I know.
But really, all you’re doing here is avoiding the subject, thus absolutely CONCEDING to the points I raised above.
I’m just taking a wild guess here, but it seems as though you’re very offended by this blog and not interested in a healthy objective discussion. Why that is, I’m not 100% sure.
December 31st, 2008 at 9:34 am
Derek,
Do you believe Scripture teaches that Jesus is God? How about the Trinity? How about justification through faith alone? Are these truths worth contending for? Would you take a stance on these issues or would you just say what you’re saying now that “it’s a matter in interpretation”?
I’m just curious.
These matters are at the heart of the Christian Orthodox faith and people have fought for for centuries. The majority of believers, however, have always held to these. The majority of believers have not always held to the prosperity health and wealth gospel. It is a very new thing and is mostly popular in North America where there is money (which is still a very small % compared to the economic status of the rest of the world).
Now the question is, “what is the health and wealth gospel” and “does it miss the Biblical mark so much that it needs to be addressed?”
December 31st, 2008 at 10:51 am
Craig,
This is the problem with doing this all online. I type a post, and you perceive a tone from me which doesn’t accurately reflect my attitude about this. I’m calling an act, “cowardly,” and you say that I called you a coward.
If you don’t feel good about having the blog, why have it? Wouldn’t you have peace about it, if it was the right thing to do?
As far as scriptures, I’ve told you why I’m not going to go down the list. I agree with Pastor Wendell’s assessment of prosperity and I’ve seen the fruit of these principals in my own life and the lives of others.
Additionally, I don’t see God as a meal ticket or a means to get money, and my Pastor has never told me otherwise or preached so from the pulpit. The right attitude is to know that God’s will is for me to have an abundant life, as the Word says and that His will is to prosper me and not to harm me (Jer 29:11) and that as my soul prospers, I too will prosper and be in health. TCC teaching is that there’s the world’s way of prospering which is greed, selfishness and material pursuit, and there’s Biblical prosperity which has nothing to do with focusing on money, but rather being Kingdom minded first, and God will prosper your life so that you can fulfill whatever your calling is. For some it will be to influence the business/corporate world. For others, it will be the Mission field, the streets, prisons, etc. as you know. In any and all of these callings, Biblical prosperity is that God will always supply the need you have to build the Kingdom. That is Biblical prosperity as I’ve seen it and read in the Bible. God always supplies where there is a need, as we are faithful to his KINGDOM. Additionally, he wants me to be successful in everything that I do, for his Glory.
If any ministry preaches to use God as your tool for achieving financial wealth, you and I will agree every time that this is not Biblical. I have attended churches in the past that I felt teach this, and I have left. This is not the message of The City Church.
I understand you have your feelings and disagreements with the doctrine that is taught at TCC. That’s fine. I would never criticize you for not agreeing. I would never criticize you for examining the scriptures. My criticism here is the nature and manner in which you’ve chosen to voice this, by publicly criticizing a pastor online, and opening up a discussion forum where everyone can take their “shots.” Discussing and debating scripture is fine, you’re absolutely right. But I’m not on here to debate the scripture. I’m on here because of the nature of this blog. I’m not crazy enought to ever imply that we all need to agree. I don’t need to defend the prosperity message because I think it’s fine that you don’t agree with it. You’re asking me to debate the scriptures with you, which I would only do if I thought your lack of belief in such a doctrine was putting your salvation at risk, which I don’t.
I am addressing what I DO THINK is dangerous ground for you to walk on, and that is the manner in which you’ve decided to raise these issues.
Equally, I don’t feel a need to ever try and convince you that you’re wrong about it. We’re simply interpreting these scriptures differently.
This was a long way of me saying:
1. Your view of the prosperity doctrine is a result of your interpretation of scripture. I respect this view and have no problem with it. Also, I am not here to argue it. Additionally, I acknowledge that I interpret these scriptures different than you, and I’m okay with that and don’t feel the need to debate it online, where I can’t have a face to face discussion and look through the scriptures with you.
2. I am only contending with the manner in which you’ve decided to expose and examine this issue. I think it has been handled wrong, so that is why I have contacted you and this is the point I have been “arguing.” Look back at my posts and you’ll see this is the issue I keep coming back to.
My apologies if I have been perceived to have slammed you personally. My intent was to criticize the method used, regardless of who the person is as I mentioned in a previous post.
All the Best,
December 31st, 2008 at 11:05 am
Cameron,
Jesus as God is a critical and central issue when determining one’s salvation. Therefore, I contend daily for this issue and others like it. There are, however, secondary issues such as divine healing, prosperity, word of faith, etc. that aren’t stated in the Bible as being central to the salvation process, therefore, I don’t spend a lot of time trying to change peoples’ minds on these issues. My focus daily is winning the lost for Jesus Christ and bringing people into the Kingdom. I do not believe in lewering them in by some “health and wealth” doctrine that gets them all emotionally charged up. I want people to know Christ and accept him for the purpose of saving them from Hell.
I appreciate the question.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Thanks Derek,
and my overarching point then is that if you believe Jesus is God then it is not a matter of your interpretation, but Scripture’s… that is how you probably arrive at this conclusion. Further, you may even consult what the majority of Christians have said in the past.
Do you only consult Scripture on primary matters of salvation and not on supposedly secondary matters too??? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… am I taking crazy pills??????!!!!!!!
The bottom line is that all ideas have consequences and our ideas must be filtered though the lens of Scripture. Scripture saves us from our silly and half-true beliefs which can be so damaging. This is probably why God inspired James 3:1.
December 31st, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Derek, I think you summed up your overarching concern with the blog when you simply said “I think it has been handled wrong”.
I’m glad to hear that you don’t necessarily have a problem with the prosperity gospel being un-biblical, for your sake.
But would you mind giving some reasons as to why you believe Craig’s blog is handled wrong to you? It might be worth noting that Craig created a thread for this specific topic http://www.doctrinetalk.com/?p=58
I’m sure that this blog is not entirely without error. Now if only all the people who say that TCC is not perfect would admit that opinions thrown around on a blog like this are not perfect. But we are living in a day and age where if we are going to err, it should be on the side of contending for the truth. This blog has been very helpful to people who are questioning certain doctrines about prosperity, word of faith, TCC, etc.
This is very needed in the Church today. Most Christians today don’t have discernment and are easily tossed around by the winds of doctrine, not by their own fault but simply because they are ignorant. And most Churches today don’t tremble at being Bible centered.
Your not exactly welcome to discuss contrary teachings at the TCC with City Church people. It’s not really received all that well and if it were, they aren’t really that educated with opposing views.
Many people’s eyes have been opened and people have been given great discernment through this blog. That my friend, is exciting news for the Kingdom.
December 31st, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Cameron,
I do consult scripture for these secondary matters and there’s nothing in the Bible that tells me God doesn’t want me to have a prosperous life. Nowhere. There are also no scriptures that tell me God wants me to be materially wealthy (with the exception of Deuteronomy 8:18). There are, however, scriptures that speak of God’s will for me to have abundant life (John 10:10), prosper in health as my soul prospers (3 John 1:2), plans to prosper and not to harm (Jer 29:11) and if I seek first the Kingdom, I won’t have to worry about my needs being met (Matt 6:33). The key is to seek the kingdom.
What some prosperity preachers seem to over-emphasize is that the if you focus on finances then bring God into the picture to “activate” this desire, then you’ve got some magic “prosperity formula” that will lead you to riches and wealth. I do not agree with this. Without mentioning names, I grew up in this type of church and eventually began to feel that if I wasn’t prospering financially, then there must be something wrong in my walk with the Lord. That’s the other mistake that many prosperity preachers make is implying that your financial status is reflective of your salvation status, level of faith or relationship with God. I agree this is extremely dangerous and I’ve had this check in my spirit when listening to certain ministers at other churches, etc.
The thing is Cameron, I don’t believe this site is strictly about debunking prosperity doctrine, because there would be many other ministries called into question on this blog.
The focus here is TCC, which tells me this is really a site dedicated to de-bunking and criticizing TCC as a ministry. When you’ve got threads titled after the names of specific pastors at one church, it becomes more than a “doctrinetalk” site. So to answer your question, that is my problem with the way this site is handled. It’s aimed at one ministry. The messages that are downloaded and listened to are from one church, regardless of who the preacher is.
I can name several other ministries that are blatent about their overemphasis of the “health and wealth” message, but funny enough, that isn’t being talked about here.
At TCC, it is consistently preached that there has to be a divine purpose to God’s prosperity (hence the name of the conference). Being someone who is sensitive to this already and having attended for many years, I have never heard the contrary preached by the Pastor.
This is why I refer to it as “your interpretation.” Because I actually GO THERE and I’m hearing it line up with the scripture.
December 31st, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Derek, we may not be on the same blog because there are doctrinal issues raised such as Calvinism, eschatology, etc. Other ministries and ministers besides TCC have been raised too like Joel Olsteen, TD Jakes, Kenneth Hagin, etc.
And if TCC is emphasized on the blog, then so be it. TCC pastors proof text in the negative form to back many of their teachings. As I said earlier, many many people do not have enough Scriptural understanding to discern these proof texts for themselves. These can eventually be a big distraction from the real Gospel if done over and over again and can convolute an accurate portrayal of God, ourselves, sanctification, etc. If many people were grounded in Scripture they would be a lot more suspect of many of TCC uses of Scripture from the outset and not later on when finally hearing something contrary and more Bible based.
The Pastors at TCC mean well and are great people on many many levels. TCC is indeed a very balanced church compared to many of the word of faith and prosperity churches out there. Thus, it’s not quite as black and white with where they might error (let alone determining that those errors are worth raising).
However, they do not demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit of faithfulness, in particular faithfulness to God’s Word with the way they misuse many verses and passages. You will see some of those misuses on this blog.
I believe these are worth raising to the minds of those who might not know any better. Many of these issues are very serious. All ideas of great consequences. Again, this is probably why God inspired James 3:1.
December 31st, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Cameron,
I’m awed by your depth of discernment in that you can accurately judge a church you don’t attend. You must be a lot of places at once. Not to mention your uncannied theological prowess. :)
Good chattin’. Take care my friend.
Regards,
Derek
December 31st, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Uh ok…. Derek, Cameron went to the City Church for many years. I think he made that abundantly clear. Also, your comments are very snide. If you have anything worth saying then say it, otherwise, stop trolling.
December 31st, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Derek, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but TCC does have a website where they put their sermons on for everyone in the world with internet access to hear.
Anyways, the last things I’d like to point out is that your comment reminds me of why it was hard for me to leave TCC. Once I started studying good theology and finally had some Biblical discernment, I could no longer sit through all the services comfortably. I tried to force myself to not notice things that where off because I didn’t want to have a “critical spirit”.
Then I went to a bible based church and it was so refreshing because it was OK to just let the Bible speak for itself, and everyone was free to question it. No one viewed it as one questioning the Pastor’s motives, but only questioning God’s Word and ultimately having to deal with it. And that’s OK. And that’s healthy.
December 31st, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Kevin,
Yes, I know Cameron went to TCC. So I’m snide for having an opposing view? Okay. Fair enough.
Cameron,
I see where you’re goin’ with this.
Again, God Bless. Take Care.
January 1st, 2009 at 9:46 am
Cameron,
I agree, once I went to a church that glorified Jesus Christ more than anything else, it was like a cool drink of water…when you are used to the perishable you don’t understand how glorious the imperishable is.
I remember sitting through sermons at TCC and reading the context of the scriptures they would use, and think…why do they use the scriptures for THAT? It amazed me how loose they were with scriptures to suppor their message de jour.
February 20th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Let’s just worship Jesus, love everyone, and not criticize those that He uses to reach people.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:16 am
Amen.
April 14th, 2009 at 11:57 am
This blog is a joke. Craig why do you feel the need to criticize anyone? You serve no purpose other than causing a rouge few to stumble. Take the plank out of your eye, then let’s talk. Do some serious self examination then let me hear your thoughts. The God I serve would have no part in your wasted words, your a wolf in sheeps clothing!! Quit hiding behind scripture, and actually apply it to your life.. oh wait then you wouldn’t have the chance to blast on your blog. Get off your holier than thou trip and do something useful for the kingdom!!
April 14th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Hi Brandon,
Thanks for your constructive criticism…but aren’t you doing exactly what you tell me not to do? So tell me, who should take the plank out? And you say “quit hiding behind scripture”…do you honestly thing that is a derogatory thing to do? Shouldn’t we be using scripture for all things (including rebuking):
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I think we would all be wise to listen to Paul’s words…
Thanks for the feedback, but until you hide behind the scriptures and base your arguments on them, not your feelings, I don’t think I will listen to your earthly wisdom.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 am
How to we obtain salvation? Simple prayer of faith of our belief in Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:28
28For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.
Does Pastor Judah point people to faith in Jesus? (Yes or No)
Why do feel like we have to correct or bring attention to a Pastor on a blog instead of going to the church, writing a letter, or sending an email to him directly? I think that is called a relationship! Has anyone on this blog ever written to Pastor Judah? I don’t attend his church and do agree with some of the points made on this blog. But scripturally, is this the correct way to bring correction to the Prosperity Driven Churches?
We have so many people leaving our churches today because of the fact that we don’t have this accountability discipline actively governing our churches. When something is used out of context, I am not saying ALL of Pastor Judah’s messages are, no one has the RELATIONSHIP with the Pastor to probe him on what was preached. I believe the reason Jesus was able to bring correction to others is because He had a relationship with them and they had faith to believe He was the Son of God.
Thus, corrective or restorative discipline is never to be done in a harsh, vengeful or self-righteous manner. It is always to be carried out in humility and love, with the goal of restoring someone to a closer walk with Christ (Matt. 18:15; Gal. 6:1).
If we are a family, how can we correct one another without first communicating with the person that has caused the initial argument? This whole blog was written in response to a message from ONE man. Before correcting we need to go to the ONE and correct in private according to Matthew 18:15-20.
So yes, I am bringing my point of view to you, NOT HAVING A RELATIONSHIP with any of you but feel that we need to drop this until someone actually has the character to approach the actual brother who has caused the issue.
Even Pastors need someone around them to keep them accountable when they are off. I have some insight to this, being a Pastors son, realizing that my Father (Pastor) is not perfect and does miss some of the times! But that is what church family is for, to bring correction when it is needed.
Finally, are we gathering with Jesus? Do we present people ultimately to Salvation? I feel there has been a little bit of scattering on both parts of the argument. We could get into unity but I feel I have other things to do at the moment. Grace and Peace to you all and I pray that these differences would not just be pure debate but would be resolved with LOVE!
Luke 11:23 (Words of Jesus in red.)
23 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
As Paul told Timothy, “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and ENCOURAGE with great PATIENCE and CAREFUL INSTRUCTION. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” (2 Timothy 4:2-4 NIV)
It is also quite possible that those who analyse the teachings of others may themselves have unbiblical teachings or perspectives – or end up “nitpicking” over non-essentials – going far beyond reason in their critiques. Some critics may have a very narrow, legalistic, or extreme fundamentalist perspective and seem to have little understanding of unity in the Body of Christ. And some write disparagingly of nearly all teachers over simple disagreements needlessly where much more important and major doctrinal issues are at stake. This is certainly unnecessary and not honouring to God.
This is an article that I found very helpful in trying to discover what to think in debates like these! Thanks for all the insight and I have grown tremendously from all the posts!
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Brian, do a little research before you hypocritically jump to conclusions.
By the way, just because someone is “pointing towards Jesus” doesn’t necessarily mean they are pointing towards truth.
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:05 pm
“By the way, just because someone is “pointing towards Jesus” doesn’t necessarily mean they are pointing towards truth.”
Ummmm…..I seem to recall someone named Jesus saying, “I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life…”
Are we talking about the same guy?
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Okay, so that was a little snide and sarcastic…I feel bad for that…my apologies.
But really in all seriousness…seriously….seriously, did you just say that?
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Evan,
Please open your eyes. Johnpaul is not saying that Jesus isn’t the truth, he’s saying that there are many teachers who say they preach Christ, but in addition to that, they pervert the gospel with humanism, and all other sorts of false doctrines. Some of these false doctrines are so severe that it can lead people to hell. The “Christ” they end up preaching is a complete perversion from the Gospel.
Matthew 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
-Kevin
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Evan, I did say that…did you read what Kevin said??? He must be crazy.
Or maybe the Lord is a liar…you tell me.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:37 pm
I read what Kevin said…but I also read what you said.
You’re a pretty reactive dude, man. Calm down.
You went after Brian who gave a really Biblically sound explanation of something and you attacked him, calling him a hypocrite.
You said people who point to Jesus aren’t necessarily pointing to the truth…and that’s ALL you said…I simply asked a question in response to your limited, baseless remark, and you are now pointing to Kevin’s comment as if I should assume he speaks for you.
Get over yourself, and whatever other bitterness you’re holding onto.
Instead of reacting with obvious emotion to what other people are saying, explain for yourself instead of having Kevin do it for you.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Kevin, I’m glad you could expand for Johnpaul, but that’s not what he said.
So, I’m supposed to assume he meant what you explained? Why would I assume that, based on a one sentence response.
I just Opened my EYES again, as you say, and wouldn’t you know it…I still see the same one sentence comment that “pointing to Jesus” isn’t “pointing to the truth,” and sorry, I take issue with that. Your explanation makes perfect sense, but don’t tell me to open my eyes.
I’m out. Peace.
We should be building each other up, and this site is a negative site that is a forum for slander, gossip and crossfire. I was hoping it was a place for real, methodical discussion based on a foundation of love for one another.
Everytime I try to have an educated discussion with someone on this site, it gets reactive and emotional.
Basically, if anyone here tries to defend TCC, they’re going to get shot down, even if they give scriptural reference or logical explanation because this is purely an anti-TCC site.
Sorry I didn’t figure that out earlier. I had a feeling, but was hoping this wasn’t the case.
Craig and Cameron, I’ve had some fairly productive debates with the two of you and I felt we were all respectful of one another, but now it’s getting out of hand.
God bless, I hope you all can heal from whatever hurts you have from TCC or any other church.
In Christ,
Evan
April 24th, 2009 at 5:42 am
Evan…go back and read your response to me before you start getting offended by “reactive” comments. If you read into my comment that i was upset it was a mistake…i’m just having a good time here.
The reason i called Brian a hyprocrite was because he was doing exactly the same thing that he was accusing Craig of…and as most of us know…craig did try to confront TCC personally. If Brian had done some research before “reacting” (as you so lovingly call it) he wouldn’t have had anything to post.
Good day sir.
April 24th, 2009 at 7:26 am
oh, and and about my previous comment…
I stand by what I said.
There are tons of people out there who USE Jesus to point to themselves. Jesus is just a word if it isn’t “pointing” to the truth.
And just to make this official: Kevin always speaks for me.
April 24th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Evan, my apologies. I thought I understood what JohnPaul what trying to say, but I guess he doesn’t understand either. lol. Well, I’m going to sit this one out and let you two squabble.
April 24th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Hey all,
I’ve been sort of sitting back just watching some of this stuff…I’m truly amazed at how hostile some of you are being. More specifically I find it ironic how hostile you’re being while claiming to know so much more about Christ and his desire for the church, than those you’re being hostile toward.
Don’t you guys see that we’re all hypocritical if we attack each other in ANY way, yet claim to post in the name of Jesus.
I don’t think Brian is a hypocrite, because he’s addressing the person directly that he has a problem with. He’s not taking unfair shots, he seems to be arguing from a scriptural basis, as we all should when discussing doctrine. It sounds like his problem with the blog (and/or the people who have founded the blog) is that, although there were obvious attempts by Craig to address those pastors directly, the Pastors did engage with Craig and respond, so why would you then go and post the emails online for everyone to read?
It’s not like the pastors ignored his emails and wrote them off without response.
Now, I”m not a TCC attendee anymore. I have my own reasons for leaving, some of which coincide with concerns voiced here. But, I have to say that the Pastor’s response posted on this site is a loving and respectful response. He just respectfully disagrees. That seems to be offensive to some of you.
The perception that can easily be taken when one reads this site (as I have for several months without comment), is that if you disagree with Craig or agree with a Pastor who believes in WOF or PD, then you’re just flat out wrong and will be belittled and made to feel small.
I’ve seen some pretty good arguments posted here, with scriptural reference that have actually made me re-think my anti-WOF position. But, I don’t think many of you really have caught the power of these arguments, because you seem to be too busy making disperaging comments toward one another.
And trust me, it has gone both ways I know.
But, to get back to my point, I understand Evan’s frustration. Evan, you should just stop posting as you’ve said, and not come back. You’ll never win. Nobody will win, because there’s so much hostility and personal offense being taken, that the haze of it all blocks any true desire to debate the scriptures effectively.
Look at the title of this thread….it NAMES a pastor…blatantly calls him out because the author doesn’t agree. That’s it. The author doesn’t agree, so let’s just plaster the guy’s name and message online in a place where anyone can take a shot at him.
Man, like I said, I have had my own issues with TCC but they are clearly the “bigger man” in this situation. That, to me, is very clear after months of reading and observing this site.
I too have been downloading and listening to the messages, critically listening closer than ever, and I really don’t hear anybody saying that you can use God to get wealthy, and I hear plenty of salvation in the messages.
This is certainly not to say that I’ll be returning or telling the world to go to TCC. But they are good people who love Jesus and want to win the City and world for Jesus. I believe that is their heart and number one priority.
Is that the case here? I don’t know. I really don’t know after what I see.
Best to all of you and God bless,
Mark L.
April 24th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Hi Mark and Brian,
I meant to reply to Brian earlier, but life gets in the way. Basically, I appreciate your comments and tone with confronting what you see as error in my blog.
Brian, I think if you read a little further you will find that I did personally confront the pastors before blogging. I actually waited a long time for a response from the pastors before starting the blog. I often question the validity of the blog and spend much time in prayer asking for guidance, and I don’t take your comments lightly.
I have enjoyed my conversations with Evan on the blog, and he is a very thoughtful and biblical critic of my actions here. I welcome that.
Man, I look at the date of this post and realize it was 2 years ago almost to the day…it was a very tough time for me. I had left TCC, and on several occasions had been talked about from the pulpit after I left. I read my critique of his sermon, and I talk about his use of scripture…but I don’t think I attack him as a person. What type of Christianity do we have if we can’t question how a pastor uses God’s word? That is the only reason they are in front of the pulpit…if they handle the bible improperly then we are doing them a favor to point it out.
If a pastor takes a scripture Jesus used to illuminate grace, but turns it into a sermon about works…shouldn’t we be upset? Where do we draw the line? What do you do if a pastor insulates themselves from discussion, and avoids any contact with you?
I haven’t listened to a sermon from TCC for a long, long time but the topics on the web site now are good ones (Grace and Done). I probably won’t listen to them, but I hope they are biblical and Christ exalting.
I think the biggest thing for me is now that I sit under preaching that is centered on Christ, I can look back and see how the preaching I got from there was centered on ME. I don’t expect people to understand that…you don’t know until you experience it and can look back and see the difference in focus. Oh yes, they use scripture and talk about God a lot…but it is just the focus that is different.
As you can probably see, I haven’t posted anything from TCC in a long, long time. One thing that does still happen is I run into a lot of people who attend TCC when sharing the Gospel, and most of the time I find that they really don’t understand the fundamentals of the Gospel. From the titles of the latest series from Judah, it seems like he has a concerted effort to change that. I hope and pray he succeeds, because the Gospel is all we have, all we need, and all we hope for. When the focus is put on the Gospel, then all else comes in alignment…when the focus is on me then the truth is blurred. My desire is that the people of TCC will get preaching that is Christ centered, and not “me” centered. I don’t claim to know if what is preaching there now is “me” centered or not since I haven’t listened to the messages for a long time. I know this though, God is moving among His people, and I would not at all be surprised if He is moving Judah and Wendell away from the things that do not focus on His Son.
Brian, I agree with you that we should go personally to the pastor before we do anything. I was a leader under Judah, and attempted to talk to him several times. I spoke to him once in his office, and he told me we would follow up…months later we bumped into each other at a mall (after repeated attempts to get together with him), and that is when it dawned on me that there was no desire for relationship and honest and open discussions about the issues. I also found out that there was no real desire to discuss them when Wendell sent his letter (that’s why he never answered my reply…just talked about me in the pulpit). The curtain was pulled back for me, and the men who I admired so much showed their true colors. Don’t get me wrong, I was not hurt that they didn’t talk to me…but the lack of biblical concern for truth was lacking. It was much more of a defensive posturing that used half-truths to defend the doctrines they hold to.
So we don’t agree on everything…we don’t have to. Lets at least honestly talk about where we disagree and turn together to scripture to find the Truth.
April 24th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Well said, and certainly well received here, Craig.
And although i don’t necessarily agree with your “half-truths” assessment of TCC, I appreciate your humble candor and desire to find the truth.
All the Best,
Mark
August 7th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I myself am a fan of Pastor Judah Smith. I have heard a many of his messages & I love them! I believe that this interpretation is wrong. Some people know at the age of 9 what theyre called to do! It just takes serious listening to the Holy Spirit. Who are we to be critical. If Pastor Judah isn’t doing what God wants for him to be doing, why is he blessed & why does God keep anointing him with this gift? Its all God. We are no one to judge what he says. Even if it was a mistake, everyone makes them, we’re human. If you have heard Pastor Judah frequently you know that he is a family man! He can go on & on about his family! He can sometimes get side-tracked with them, but he always keeps on top of his message. We are no one to talk about it. If its wrong with God, let God handle it.
God bless.
August 8th, 2009 at 12:04 am
I think he is a very gifted speaker and communicator. He makes me smile and laugh a lot too. He seems to be very Biblical on many of his sermons, but sometimes his exegisis is ay ay eisagesis and things are taken way out of context.
Many churches and pastors do this and are never checked on it because it’s 1. not a great concern among the congregants or 2. never taught to be a great concern. But this can be dangerous because that means people can grow to not have discernment because they’ll feel guilted for having questioned a pastor’s precious teaching and interpretation.
The Aposltes and Jesus questioned teaching, and so should we. No one said to them, “you jerks, why don’t you just stop judging people!”. They would have just replied, “uh, because the truth is the standard”.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Hi, my question is if there is a word to make a church that disciples 1000s better. Why hasn’t there been a meeting schedule with TCC to resolve these issues?
November 13th, 2009 at 9:47 am
They are not interested in a meeting…I talked with Pastor Judah a few times when I still attended there, but his father was not interested. He (Wendell) said they block email addresses that don’t agree with them…not really an open spirit.
November 13th, 2009 at 9:50 am
If they have changed their mind…I’m open!
November 13th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
When’s the last time you were willing to sit down and meet with someone who worked tirelessly to smear your name and sabotage your reputation on the internet? I don’t think I’d waste my time meeting with that person either.
November 14th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Mark….
I do believe they refused to meet with Craig long before he started this blog.
Face it, The City Church (and most large MFI related churches) do not deal well with people who have questions. It’s not really an “open door” policy.
November 14th, 2009 at 10:29 am
TCC will discuss a lot of things at times. But if you disagree with them on WOF teaching, prosperity teaching, power of words, under their authority teachings, etc. they will not be as welcome to it b/c those things are very center to their theology.
I remember when I went to MarsHill after TCC, they had a blog where all the members of the church were debating issues and even debating parts of Driscoll’s sermons. Driscoll would get on the blog regularly too and join the discussions without questioning people’s motives.
That blew my mind coming out of TCC and see how taboo it is to question them.
November 14th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
I understand you being a little angered but when was the last time that we stopped trying to bring down churches and instead bring them up through prayer?
November 16th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Mark,
Having a blog was not my first option. It was actually the last option born from their refusal to be open and discuss these topics.
To “???” – thanks for the prayer tip. I have thought that is a great idea since day 1. Spend lots of time in prayer for them. I don’t think it is an either/or proposition.
November 16th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Regardless of whether or not it was your first option, simply stating that it was your “last option” to gossip probably doesn’t make gossip any more “right” in God’s eyes. Last I checked, He never justified it as a “last option” resort. Wrong is wrong.
November 16th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Hmmm…writing about what they do publicly is gossip? Wow, new definition there. Here is the real definition:
“idle talk or rumor, esp. about the personal or private affairs of others: the endless gossip about Hollywood stars.”
What I talk about here is not what they do in private, or behind closed doors, but what they publish to the world. It just bugs you because you think I am wrong in my scriptural interpretation.
November 16th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Well, with all due respect Craig, it doesn’t bug me. I am genuinely concerned for the spiritual well-being of people who trash on men of God and provide a forum for others to come and do the same.
And I would argue that on several posts, you’ve cited what “sources” within the church tell you about the personal lives of these pastors.
Just as well, you’ve talked about their homes and cars which I’ve never heard them get up and publicly talk about where they live, how much the house is worth or how much their cars cost.
So call it public all you want, and keep rationalizing what you’re doing. I’m just a concerned believer who, by the way, does not attend TCC nor do I agree with much of what is taught there.
November 16th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Well, Mark. Don’t you think what they take in for preaching the Gospel is relevant when the prerequisites for elders is “not given to filthy lucre”? There is a reason they don’t talk much about it (bad for business).
Mark, so far your concern for me has not based much on scripture…so that’s why I don’t take your opinion to heart. I guess I am used to the name calling and empty accusations. It really doesn’t take much to sluff those off since I don’t look for the praises of men. I think the scriptures are true when they warned of those who would make merchandise of the Gospel…and that’s why I warn others. This blog really isn’t meant to please you.
November 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Right…okay…I suppose it’s meant to please God.
And don’t get so emotionally charged Craig…I’m simply calling you out for untruths that you’re spewing, when you’re claiming that you’re not talking about peoples’ personal lives. You just responded by qualifying it rather than proving that you’re not doing it.
And if your theory is correct, then they WOULD want to share their houses and cars stories with the congregation because it would be GOOD for business, assuming they want other people to think that God will make them rich. There are preachers who brag about this, you know.
Your logic and reasoning are fuzzy at best, and quit reverting back to “scripture” as your crutch when your blog is clearly based more upon your personal feelings about the people you’re referring to. Otherwise, you wouldn’t make ignorant comparisons like equating a pastor having a nice house or car to “given to filthy lucre.”
You’re essentially deciding what “filthy lucre” is by simplifying it to a pastor/elder having a really nice house and/or car. Fortunately for all of us, the Word of God is not that shallow.
November 17th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Mark,
Like I said, this blog’s purpose is not to please people like you…so why would I be emotionally charged or surprised when you come on here trying to shoot the messenger? Trust me, I am not emotionally charged, I think you are reading that into the comments. Of course you would interpret my comments as fuzzy, illogical and gossip…I am not surprised. I tend to think the scriptures are clear and concise, not fuzzy.
I think we can boil down our disagreement in a much more constructive way than how you like to take the conversation.
I think the prosperity gospel is not of God, and clearly (not fuzzily) warned of in scripture. I have experienced the dangers of it and have seen the destruction it has brought on people first hand. I believe having the blog helps people to see the dangers of the prosperity gospel at TCC.
You don’t agree.
It really is that simple. If you can convince me (through scripture) that it isn’t a big deal…then by all means, begin doing that. If you don’t want to bring scripture on the specific topic, then I really don’t put any stock into what your opinion is. Not emotionally charged, just blunt. If you want to keep coming back telling me what a bad Christian for having the blog, feel free…really that’s about all I get out of your comments.
November 18th, 2009 at 9:12 am
The problem is, when you are distorting the very scriptures you’re referencing (i.e. “given to filthy lucre”) and you’re deciding that a pastor with riches must be in this “filty lucre” category Craig, who’s to say you’ll pay attention to the ones I present.
The bottom line is that you’ll always be able to find a scripture that you can twist to try and justify your hyper-critical and divisive spirit. There are a lot of people who disagree with each other’s doctrine, yet they don’t go stabbing each other in the back or posting private emails online (clearly an emotional reaction as you’ve admitted that you did this when you heard they were “talking about you” from the pulpit). Isn’t that retaliation?
So who’s really “causing the division, or the offense”?
I ask all of this in love, and out of concern for all of the new Christians or “young” Christians who might stumble onto this site and be misled.
It’s more than me not agreeing with you Craig. Trust me, it’s much more serious than that.
In Christ,
Mark
November 18th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Craig,
You must remember when dealing with “these people” that Scripture is of little importance. Most of “these people” put their faith in their pastor and the size of his church.
Once they are convinced someone is a man of God then it doesn’t matter what the Bible says…Pastors always trump Scripture.
It’s hypocritical but true.
Mark, this line was your best ever:
“and quit reverting back to “scripture” as your crutch”
Mark, you are so right…that damn scripture can be such a crutch sometimes. I hate it when it gets in the way of what we believe.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:00 am
John Paul,
Interesting take…I’ll give you that. :) “These People” comment was the absolute best. LOL
And stop being like a network news anchor, and finish my entire sentence when you quote me. “and quit reverting back to scripture as your crutch when your blog is clearly based more upon your personal feelings about the people you’re referring to.”
Really John Paul? Are you really going to misquote me when the message is like 3 posts up on the page?
The point is, stop saying you’re basing your position on scripture when your blog is loaded with emotional reasoning.
Scripture should always “get in the way”. I agree with you there.
As someone who doesn’t agree with the full-blown prosperity doctrine and doesn’t attend TCC, I actually came across this site as I am a John Piper fan among others, and there was a post on here with some Piper content.
Initially, I was in agreement with a lot of what Craig was saying…but then as I read on, I started realizing that this site has gone way too far. I’ve seen people respectfully disagree and debate with one another over doctrine, and still leave with a love and respect for one another and certainly not calling each other “heretics” or “Judahites”, etc. I’ve never seen mature Christians actually get into name-calling on a website where the subject person is not there to defend his/herself.
The blog then went immediately from a “discussion”-based site, to a Christian gossip site where people get to air the dirty laundry of men and women of God who they don’t even know well enough to have the facts, and vent all their hurts and pains, etc.
As big of a problem as I have with the tone of this blog, I would never go trashing Craig’s name on another site, or start a blog to bash his blog.
Forgive the cliche here folks but I literally think “what would Jesus do” in cases like this, and I’m sorry, but providing a forum for people to bash doesn’t immediately come to mind.
I love all of you as you are brothers/sisters in Christ, but I do take a firm tone in these posts because to me, this is a very serious step to take when you’re publicly addressing the reputation and character of men and women of God.
Some may come here to argue just for the fun of it. That’s not me. Craig is right when he simply says, “we don’t agree.” That’s the bottom line.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Mark,
As a side note, is there any chance you are a pastor?
November 18th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Craig,
I actually finished seminary and was ordained, but no, I am not a pastor and have never been in the full-time ministry.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:53 am
And yes, I will gladly post scripture that supports a doctrine which teaches that God wants his people to prosper. There’s an enormous list, so bear with me as I compile it.
As for TCC, I think they teach a pretty modest, moderate prosperity doctrine(from downloading messages and attending events there from time to time). I think there must be a clear distinction made between a church like TCC and others that you see on TV. Many of those, I believe, take it way too far and make money the number one topic of teaching/discussion. I believe that is unscriptural. To me, it’s clear that many of these ministries don’t “seek first the Kingdom” and then allow prosperity to be added, but rather pursue prosperity as if it is some type of virtue or way to obtain further Godliness. This is very dangerous and I think we’re all on common ground in terms of what we think of these ministries.
TCC on the other hand is very much Kingdom driven (again, from what I hear…which is one or two downloads a month for the past 3 years or so) and teaches supplementally on the different ways that God will bless your life (including financial provision).
To me there are two schools of teaching/doctrine there and the distinction is very clearly different.
November 18th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Mark, Did you watch this video from Piper. I think he addresses your assertion that they are balanced.
http://www.doctrinetalk.com/?p=314
Also, you talk about the TV preachers as if they are seperate from TCC. Here are some of the people the have come to their church, and sell their books in the book store:
Marylin Hickey
Oral Roberts
Ken Hagin
Benny Hinn (books in bookstore when I was there)
Leroy Thompson
T.D. Jakes
These are but a few of the people they associate with and esteem. Strict WOF/prosperity teachers. Mark, I know the teachings first hand. Do they preach it every sermon, no…but it is one of the distinctive and foundational doctrines of their church.
I would argue that it is more insidious to introduce it in as “balanced” teaching when they align themselves with the very people to take it too far. I could show you sermons that prove my point. You speak out of a place of ignorance if you don’t think they are like the TV preachers (unless they have changed since the last few years I was there).
To be fair, I don’t think Judah is as passionate of the prosperity gospel as Wendell is. I could be wrong about that too.
My sister and I were reflecting about an event at TCC while we were members there. Marylin Hickey spoke at TCC and we gave her money. We started getting the pennies in the mail that were prayed for and asking for money in return for “the blessing” (see Simon the sorcerer). We were quite offended and sure Wendell would be too. (click here for examples of the mailing). How naive we were…
My point is that you like to make a distinction between the levels of their adherence, but the truth is the distinction is not there. I used to believe there was a distinction…but God opened my eyes. I can see how you would draw that conclusion from afar…
November 18th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Yeah, I actually attended that event…I think she showed a video of soldiers in Iraq who were putting prayer cloths in their helmets, etc. Same one?
Anyway, yeah, that stuff is just weird and I didn’t feel right about it either. And in fact, heard that they asked that those things not be covered if she was to visit again. Don’t know if she ever came back, and if so, I don’t know if something similar happened.
I agree with that.
I was at one of the others you mentioned as well, and was pretty weirded out too, and again, spoke with a staff pastor who echoed such concern and since that time, that person has not come back and preached from the pulpit ever again.
Mistakes can be made in terms of who we “let in” to preach to our congregations and I think you could get an admission from people in leadership that some of those were mistakes.
Good points. Still don’t see how it justifies the aforementioned tone of the blog and the hyper-critical personal attacks.
November 18th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Dear Mark,
Thanks for clearing your statement up…your updated version makes more sense:
I can’t speak for Craig, but I sure would love to have you give a few examples of when Craig used “emitional reasoning” over scripture.
Also, while compiling your proof text that “supports a doctrine which teaches that God wants his people to prosper” please don’t skip over all the mentions of the danger of money (Craig has them listed all over this blog if you need help finding them). No “balanced” study would be right without including at least a few of them.
Oh…and if you would…please also take a quick look at the lives of the disciples and apostles throughout the Bible just to see if their lives line up with the level of Prosperity that The City Church teaches.
And I’d also be curious to know your thoughts on how well The City Church’s Prosperity Doctrine would be recieved in 3rd world countries.
November 18th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Mark,
I think you say “hyper-critical” because you are ignorant. Don’t interpret this remark as being rude, but as frank as Paul was to Peter in Gal 2. Being frank can be better than indirect.
Have you ever sat under a church for years that emphasized WOF teaching, prosperity teaching, man-centered gospels, continuously over-looked bad Bible interpretations, and didn’t welcome correction whereby gross assumptions were directly or indirectly made towards those who did? I have and I know Craig has, as we were in bible study there together.
I think Craig has done a wonderful job handling himself and doctrine on this blog. Others have come on here and bad mouthed, but so has TCC many times to those who question them. Even though doctrinal issues can easily become personal, Craig has posted his threads and comments (as the host) objectively and Biblically.
Just by you listening to a few sermons online and sitting in on a few sermons doesn’t justify your critiques of this blog.
Either theology makes much of man or Christ, and sometimes those lines are blurred. I wish every church which so much as blurred those lines would be Biblically rebuked, according to 2 Tim 3:16, and Rom 3:20.
November 18th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Cameron, to answer your first question, “yes.” My father attended Rhema Bible College and we attended Hagin’s church for a number of years as well as others like it including those of Oral Robers, Kenneth Copeland and Billy Joe Dougherty. So yes, I’ve sat under that type of teaching for my whole life (perhaps that’s longer than your tenure in such environments). About 27 years to be exact. And TCC is NOTHING like those ministries.
Trust me, I don’t think you’re rude. I just think you’re ignorant as well, so I guess we’re at an impasse in that way, huh? No hard feelings though.
And what justifies your critique of TCC? That you’re CAMERON? Please.
Because you interned and attended there a couple of years ago, makes you the all-knowing concerning that church? I’ve seen you cite “downloading messages” on this blog as a justified critique method and have seen links to those messages posted here, with plenty of commentary underneath the post, criticizing TCC for a single sermon, generalizing that the church agrees with everything in the message, so don’t tell me that I can’t draw any conclusions from regularly downloaded TCC messages. Let’s not have a double standard.
And if you think that Craig has done a “wonderful job handling himself and doctrine on this site,” then tell me what is biblically sound and/or appropriate about posting a private email sequence online for the world to see? And the reasoning that I was give a while back was that Craig decided to post the email “when he had heard that he was talked about from the pulpit.” What kind of conclusion should one draw from this other than it being completely retaliatory and emotional?
Where’s that excused in the scripture? Ever read Proverbs 20:22?
My arguments are rarely going to be over the Prosperity issue, but rather, I’m more likely to argue or contend with the way such private information and opinions about individuals (called out by name) are so wrecklessly displayed on this site.
November 18th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Oh Marky Mark…
you sure do a lot of accusing without offering anything to back it up.
Please…if you will…break it down for me in Chapter & Verse. Show me specifically where Craig has gone wrong.
Your accusations of Craig’s blog seem to be “loaded with emotional reasoning” and lack substance.
November 18th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
I guess I don’t take the view that following the prosperity gospel is an accident on their part. I have a concern for those who are misled like I was, and want a counterpoint to what they know inside is false. My blog has done that for quite a few…pulling them from the clutches of a false gospel that entangles you in legalism and shipwrecks the faith of many. You don’t see that by attending once and a while, or by downloading messages. I was in the middle of that carnage and saw it first hand. At first, I blamed the sheep being destroyed…but then I realized it was the bondage of the message being preached.
You might think it is “bad theology light” because you came from the heavy hitters, but they learned it from those guys and still esteem those guys. Its rotten.
Contrary to what you believe, I didn’t do the blog out of self-defense, or spite, or hurt…but genuine concern for the hurting sheep and hope for repentance. That’s all. The defensiveness you refer to is in response to commentator like yourself who take personal stabs at me – making accusations based on your assumptions…not the truth.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
John Paul…I just told you what my problem is with the blog..specifically…Re: The posting of private emails, then allowing others to come and critique and take stabs at the pastor…enough said there…doesn’t seem like you’re really reading my posts.
Craig…if I’ve taken stabs at you, isn’t it fair to say that I’ve directed them at you in a fair forum where you can respond, rather than going to someone else’s forum or starting my own where I stick your emails up on display for everyone to take their shots at?
So, you don’t want me addressing you disfavorably? You expect to put a blog up like this and have nobody oppose you? You’re going to need to grow some thicker skin if that’s the case. If every time I disagree with you, you say I’m taking personal shots at you, then what the heck are you doing online? You should make it membership-exclusive then, and screen people to make sure they all believe the way you do then, before you let them comment or take part in the discussions.
It never fails on this site…I provide opposition or a differing point of view and the wolves come out and start criticizing me of taking personal shots. At least I’m addressing you directly rather than going to a different place to complain about you to others and invite them to join in the fun.
Still, interestingly enough, nobody wants to address my concern about posting the email from the pastor, up on the site and in doing so , explain how it’s not retaliatory when you said yourself Craig, that you did it after they spoke of you from the pulpit. Did I pull that out of thin air, or did you really say that? Cuz I could have swore you told me that in a previous post.
Either be willing to discuss and take criticism at the same time, or start a club for people who think the way you do. I can’t belive how sensitive you’re being, accusing me of taking “shots” when I’m addressing you directly and asking what I think are valid questions about emails, etc. and funny enough…not getting answers. And by the way…let’s have Biblical backing when you do give your answer.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
I’m not debating the Prosperity Gospel…we have very few disagreements on that…i.e. the Piper video is RIGHT ON and I agree whole heartedly with it.
I’m calling out what many people would see the fruit of and view as the attempts at public humiliation and gossip of a pastor and several elements of his private life. Period..end of story.
And by the way, I still need to know why it’s bad for business for a “prosperity preacher” to tell people about the great house and car that God gave him, as was indicated earlier in the thread. Seems to me this would actually work in his favor. Yet, I’d bet it’s never been a topic from the pulpit.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
RE: posting of private emails
I don’t think Pastor Wendell thought the email was private since he first handed it out to the church leaders…(about 500 of them).
I don’t know why they don’t flaunt their wealth more, maybe a little conviction…or maybe its hard to say all the money is for the Gospel when you are getting rich off it? Just speculation.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
At least you are not using a pulpit to do it…just saying. Amazing how the apostle Paul wrote letters to be passed around warning of individuals. Something to think about.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Mark,
So you’re saying you have sat under churches which had man-centered gospels, which continuously over-looked bad Bible interpretations, and didn’t welcome correction whereby gross assumptions were directly or indirectly made towards those who did want to correct them, and Oral Robert’s, Kenneth Copeland’s and Billy Joe Dougherty’s churches were those types of churches?
Is that what you’re saying, because that’s what I asked?
You said, “And what justifies your critique of TCC? That you’re CAMERON? Please.
Well actually, Cameron has experience in this area which you don’t sound like you have. Sorry.
Further, what justifies YOUR critique of this blog? That you’re Mark? These silly types of remarks work both ways.
Because you interned and attended there a couple of years ago, makes you the all-knowing concerning that church?
No Mark. I didn’t merely peek in like you only have. I have had many many experiences and experiences with people there which has informed me.
Mark, I never said you can’t critique TCC’s sermons via the web, so there’s no contradiction. It’s that this blog exists not merely from people who have glimpsed into TCC, but have personally, practically, and experientially been effected by it’s teachings for the worst. Many of the teachings (directly or indirectly) have taken people away from the true gospel, not towards it, and THAT is serious. You care about those things right? You’ve seen all the crap that comes out of the WOF teaching so you know.
then tell me what is biblically sound and/or appropriate about posting a private email sequence online for the world to see?
Because his email proves that TCC’s doctrine needs to go to a Biblical chiropractor. It’s so convoluted with cliche remarks you’d get from WOFers such as the teachers you and your dad grew up with. Then Craig gets his motives put under the spotlight by Wendell, not because he’s coming to Biblical conclusions (which he doesn’t even get commended for!) so it can only be for another reason. TCC’s celebrity status was being threatened. If you take away the prosperity gospel theology, the tithers who are duped and like to hear it go too.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Cameron,
I just told you I have experience in it, and that I grew up in it…so why are you saying that I have no experience with it and you do?
Are you people even reading my posts?
Yes, I care about this stuff. I care about the people who are lead to believe that if they’re holy enough, God will make them rich, which many ministries teach.
Again, I’m not debating the prosperity doctrine…I’m challenging the slander (whether it was done to Craig first or not).
November 18th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
Mark,
I just told you I have experience in it, and that I grew up in it
I didn’t ask you if you grew up in WOF teaching, but more specifically
“if you have sat under churches which had man-centered gospels, which continuously over-looked bad Bible interpretations, and didn’t welcome correction whereby gross assumptions were directly or indirectly made towards those who did want to correct them, and if Oral Robert’s, Kenneth Copeland’s and Billy Joe Dougherty’s churches were those types of churches?”
Are you reading my posts?
If this blog slanders to you then I wouldn’t lose sleep. If you think this blog is mostly about slandering then I think you’re a political correctness freak and more interested in that then exposing things which distort the gospel. If we’re going to sit in a circle and talk about slander, then even TCC slanders those who question them, and I don’t lose sleep. There are more important things to worry about.
November 19th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Um Mark…you say:
And yet you refuse to to offer any specifics.
You know what I think??? I think you went looking for specific examples of Craig slandering and couldn’t find them…but because of your obvious issue with Pride you can’t admit you are wrong.
It’s ok Mark…we all have our issues.
November 19th, 2009 at 10:08 am
I guess we are waiting for your examples. When I talked about their house and cars, it wasn’t slander…because its true. So are you slandering when you call me a slanderer?
November 19th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
You guys have quite the strategy here…someone challenges the author and you start taking jabs at them personally. What a welcoming environment for discussion. What’s funny is that I even agree with a lot of what you’re saying regarding WOF, etc.
THe only things that I have challenged are specific comments that have been made on the blog. That’s the evidence and fruit that I am looking at. I haven’t called Craig a name, told him how much pride he has, or attacked any of you personally. My comments are aimed directly at what is written and posted on this blog, and to Craig’s credit, at least he’s willing to take whatever heat comes his way.
John Paul, you’ve asked for specific examples twice now, and twice I’ve given specific examples (i.e. the posting of the emails on the site and the discussing of private conversations that were had with pastors, as well as discussing their homes, cars and other private possessions that those pastors have chosen to keep private). How much more specific would you like me to be? That’s what I have a problem with, and every time I challenge it one of two things happens. I either get bombarded with personal insults (i.e. John Paul’s incredibly intuitive assessment of my pride level or Cameron calling me a political corectness freak with regard to my “slander” reference, which must have been the case for James as well – see James 4:11) or I’m being asked to be MORE specific.
Let’s look at scripture so that you can see the reference point I’m coming from. A couple that come to mind immediately are:
Proverbs 17:9 addresses promoting love by “covering offenses” rather than telling everyone about them.
In I Cor. 4:3-4 Paul talks about not passing judgment despite the fact that he has a “clear conscience” and that regardless of how clear his conscience is, he is “still not innocent.”
Ps. 50:20 references speaking out against thy brother as “slandering thy mother’s own son.”
Now, with these will obviously come the argument of whether or not we’re dealing with false prophets. I think the Bible is clear about the fact that we’re to “mark” those who cause divisions/offences (Romans 16:17 I believe, but correct me if I’m wrong…shooting from the hip here as I’m not right in front of my Bible at the moment).
What is also very clear is that with identifying false teachers, we will know them by their fruit. Matthew 7:15 exhorts us to beware of false prophets and then in v16 goes on to say how we will know them by their fruits.
So what has to be examined here, before we can draw a conclusion determining that a pastor is a false prophet therefore giving us a Biblical right to make critical mention of them publicly, is the fruit of the person(s).
And by the way…putting doctrine on display and trying it with scripture is not wrong or sinful and I’m not saying it’s wrong. Putting someone’s house, car or private conversation on display to be “tried” by others is where I contend.
It is also not “Berean” to look at every past mistake or judgment error that a pastor or preacher has made and hold that against him/her as a means or way to presently criticize or determine one’s current doctrinal standing, which is why I contend that the consistent message spoken today from a pulpit is much more significant than that of guest speaker or multiple guest speakers of past sermons.
Let’s look at specific fruit cited in the Bible as means to “call someone out” in the church or classify them as “false”.
1 Cor. 5 is very specific about the sexual immorality that is taking place in the church as well and tells us to not so much as even “eat” with those who call themselves brothers, yet are sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. First of all, can we agree that these characteristics/sins all imply “intent” to commit such things? A swindler, drunkard, sexually immoral, slandering idolater and the context of this chapter imply deceptive intent.
Also, in Romans 16, the reference to a false teacher is subsequently explained as a smooth-talking, flattering one who puts obstacles in the way of the truth in order to take advantage of naive people. Again, this implies “intent” to deceive.
2 Peter 2 describes false teachers (well, initially false prophets)as those who will secretly introduce false heresies “in their greed” (secretly, again implies “intent” or knowing of the destruction they are causing), exploiting people with stories they have “made up” orfabricated. They’ll be “bold and arrogant” slanderers…it then goes on to say that they will mouth empty, boastful words by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature and will cause those who are just out of sin, to stumble or be drawn in.
Now, let me say that I would never cite “Judge not lest ye be judged” as a basis for argument here. I believe we are to judge doctrine, sin, etc. through the Word and the Word only. I believe some of these issues (i.e. WOF, PD, etc.) can be fairly judged through the looking glass of the perfect word, and in doing so, I believe the Bible makes a clear distinction between what a false prophey/teaching/doctrine is, and what a doctrinal difference is.
I think it’s Godly to discuss the doctrines (as the Bereans did) and search the scriptures, however, we are to call out those individual people who have intent to deceive, manipulate, swindle, stumble, commit sexual immorality with, engage in idolatry with, and are ravenously pursuing and preying on believers for the purpose of their own gain, all while being under the cover of a sheep’s skin or claiming to be a brother.
Moving forward, we have to look at the “accused” on blogs like this one, and say, “Are these the characteristics of this Pastor” and is the fruit of this Pastor or ministry indicative of these characteristics that are pointed out to us. I conclude “no” as I believe there to simply be a difference of doctrine/interpretation which is what I know Craig has acknowledged on here as well, in several threads. But according to scripture, from what I see, this is not the same as being a false teacher or prophet. References to characteristics like those listed in 2 Peter, 1 Cor 5 and Romans imply intended deception for the purpose of personal gain/profit and I don’t see the fruit of that in the aforementioned ministry.
Additionally, in 2 Cor. Paul talks about those who will come and preach another Christ or a different Christ. Has this happened here? Everything I have heard points to Christ’s work on the cross as the one and only redeeming work that has saved us from the pit of hell and that we are doomed to hell and destruction without the acceptance, faith and acknowledgment of such grace.
If looking through such a glass, we determine that one is not a false teacher (not to say “we’ve” made this determination, but rather “I” for myself have done so) or false prophet, then such criticisms as those I have contended with are merely slander.
I would also add that I believe references to one’s private matters, possessions, homes, cars (unless he has chosen to make them public, boasting about them, etc.)regardless of doctrine, is slander and gossip and therefore I will not step back from that contention regardless.
November 19th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Actually Craig, I was referring to gossip with the cars, homes, etc.
November 19th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
And no, I’m not slandering or gossiping about you. Afterall, I’m addressing you directly, not running and telling people about you.
November 19th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Slanderous comments are those such as insinuating that aligning with Mark Driscoll is a “Business Move” or showing possessions would be “bad for business” etc. They’re pure guesses as to why a person is/isn’t doing something and they’re being stated as fact. I think there’s plenty of slander here, in that regard. A lot of guessing being stated as established truth.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Mark, are you serious? You asked me why they wouldn’t show off their wealth collected from preaching the gospel, so I threw that out there. Something stinks in DenMark. Yes, it was speculation…but I think you asked me to speculate on that. Come on man…you can’t be for real.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
If that’s all you got, give it up. Once again, someone was making the claim that they didn’t have nice stuff…so I threw that out there as a direct response to their false assertion. Not slander or gossip…but obviously it directly relates to how we as Christians should evaluate Elders (According to Paul). You really make me shake my head with baiting comments, then calling them gossip.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Mark, I was looking for specific examples (which I believe I specifically said)…examples such as:
On such-and-such post Craig said “blah, blah, blah” and in such-and-such comment Craig said “blah”.
As far as Craig posting emails goes…thats certainly not slander nor gossip…at least not by any definition that I or Webster would go by.
Craig has already referenced your bait and blame strategy in regards to the other comments.
Well played sir…just not THAT well.
The real issue here, I believe, is whether or not the Smith family is teaching a false doctrine.
You sir, if I may be so intuitive, believe they are not…and even if they were…you wouldn’t be concerned about it because they did not intend to. I however, if I may be so bold, believe that they are. I’ve known far too many people who have lost their faith in God based on their experience with these false teachers.
By the way, you should check out 2nd Timothy 3 (specifically but not exclusively verse 13 which I will post for you here.
I don’t think this chapter is very concerned with INTENT.
November 19th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Unfortunately, I’m not intuitive enough to take bait and switch tactics into discussion and manipulate based on the answers. I can’t give myself that much credit unfortunately. :)
So..Craig, my apologies on the “bad for business” critique. You’re right, I did ask you that originally, but I certainly didn’t try to pull it out of you so that I could use it against you later and I see how it came across that way. I was really asking how that could be “bad for business”. Seems counterintuitive if you’re trying to get people to focus on gaining possessions through prayer etc.
As for the critiquing of cars, houses, and discussing their personal lives, I never asked you that so I don’t know where you got the idea that it was some bait and switch. Either way, my apologies.
The issue that I laid out in the previous post is that we have to look at the fruit, and we can definitely examine through the word, who the false teachers are. John Paul, if what you’re saying is true, then we’re probably all false teachers because we probably have some element of perception about the Bible or God that is completely incorrect though our intent is to not mislead or be misled. The very verse you quoted speaks of an “imposter.” Is that someone who accidentally pretends to be someone else without knowing it? That’s a real question by the way, so please spare the usual sarcasm in your answer.
Craig, you’ve said before that if you’re wrong, then you’re in trouble…have you not? So if there’s no potential slander or gossip and you’re trying everything with scripture, then what would be the danger if you’re wrong?
In all sincerity guys, what I posted is what I believe. I’ve cited scripture (multiple verses) and I’ll take the first step of taking out the “jabs” in my tone if we all really want to look at the scripture and debate the issues. I feel there has been a fair amount of gossip and slander on this site, but that’s my opinion based upon what I’ve read and I’ll never be able to get out a Websters and debate you on it. Unkind things have been said about the pastor(s) and as a Christian brother, I have run to their defense. I particularly like what they have done for the kingdom despite our definite doctrinal differences.
I’ve been a bit emotional from time to time guys, but it’s only out of love for those who are being discussed on this site without their attendance, and also for those who I think have been sucked into gossip, grumbling, complaining regardless of whether or not that’s what you created the blog for.
Unfortunately, it still attracts such behavior and that has the potential to stir up strife.
With the Love of Christ,
Mark
November 19th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Mark,
You said, “Slanderous comments are those such as insinuating that aligning with Mark Driscoll is a “Business Move” or showing possessions would be “bad for business” etc. They’re pure guesses as to why a person is/isn’t doing something and they’re being stated as fact.”
Here is what I said. I never stated it as fact but as my own opinion.
“Also, MarsHill has taken many people away from TCC, so it’s a good business move on TCC’s part to hire him to teach there.”
“I never stated that what I said was fact, but I wouldn’t put it past them. I’m sure they’re now good friends after hiring him. TCC seems to want to be freinds with anyone who is popular and has a big church.”
Here’s a real double standard. You would be slandering me when you say I’m slandering, when I’ve already clarified that these remarks are my opinion! Here’s another example: TCC’s theme song could be ‘Snap – I’ve Got The Power’. This is my opinion. I’m not stating this as fact.
It’s also my opinion that Wendell should allow Hank Hannegraaf books in his bookstore, sell his jet, and donate the money to CRI because they champion the gospel like TCC never has.
November 19th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
His jet? LOL
And okay Cameron…that’s your opinion, that’s fine. And if you want to share it with everyone and you think that’s okay…well, then do what suits you. Point taken. I’ll keep my opinions regarding your opinions, to myself.
All Love, fellas
Best,
Mark
November 20th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Mark Mark Mark…
Some of us figured out a long time ago that debating on this site is a big waste of time.
Can’t you see that? Look back at the thread man. They tell you to cite scripture, so you do…have they responded to it? No, they responded with all the “you said this” and “you said that…” and “double standard this” and “double standard that” and oh, by the way…”You’re slandering me because you’re saying I’m slandering, therefore you’re slandering because you’re accusing me of slandering…blah blah blah.” So the scriptures come out, and nobody wants to debate them.
Instead they’d rather debate every word you type because it’s a way to deflect from the real issue.
I would encourage you to stop posting here. Obviously, you have a free will, and I think you can do what you want, but put it to rest.
Or in Craig’s words, “give it up.” Take that as a warning from the horses mouth that there aren’t going to be any intelligent, loving debates on this site.
There’s “think the way we think and don’t argue or else you’ll be attacked and we’ll pick apart every word you say, so as to take the focus off the real issue.” Talk about causing divisions.
Since nobody addressed your detailed and Biblically thorough post above, allow me, as an active member of TCC, to quickly address your question of whether or not the Pastor(s) “in question” display the bad fruit that the scripture is referring to……NO!
Swindler? Smooth-Talker? Imposter? Wolf in Sheep’s clothing? Sexually Immoral? Ravenous? Preaching another Christ? No. Some of the best preaching on the cross, grace, salvation and person of Christ that I have ever heard.
Some debatable doctrine on secondary issues, but who’s ever going to agree with everything another ministry teaches? I guess that makes all of them false teachers by the definitions/insinuations given and made on this blog.
Unfortunately some think that they can call out any preacher anytime anywhere and if that preacher doesn’t say “YOU’RE RIGHT! I’ve been so blind and now I’m going to change my beliefs to fit yours!” then suddenly that pastor is not “open to criticism”, or is “overlooking bad doctrine,” or is “unwilling to be held accountable,” or worst of all is a “heretic” and “false teacher”.
Wouldn’t that be nice? Anytime we confront someone because we don’t agree with their interpretation of scripture, we can just call them all these names and draw such definite conclusions? Then they’re a heretic and we’ve got it right. Really, Mark…do you see how silly these circular arguments are. You’re not sharpening one another.
So look at all of this Mark, and you tell me…Are you ever going to get a point across on a site like this?
Make your own decisions, but as a brother in Christ I wanted to offer some encouragement and in many ways, some warning so that you can avoid division and strife that would cause further division.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Derek… you didn’t read my response to Mark did you? See had you read it you would have seen that I did address Mark’s “detailed and Biblically thorough post above”. You see I said:
You see, Derek, the problem is simply this…I believe they are and Mark does not. The problem then becomes this: Which debate do we take up?
Mark wants to talk about Slander and Gossip and We want to talk about False Teachers and Bad Doctrine. We allow Mark to come in and state his opinion, we even are willing to discuss it with him (yes, through cruel sarcasm on my part but a discussion none the less). Then he (and even more so YOU) start to get upset because we don’t say “YOU’RE RIGHT! I’ve been so blind and now I’m going to change my beliefs to fit yours!” Suddenly we are “bitter”, “gossips”, “slanders” and are “overlooking good doctrine,” and are “unwilling to be held accountable,” …
“So sorry Derek…does it sting to have your very words thrown back at you” (says Johnpaul with a wicked laugh)…
Side note: One thing that amazes me about these Big Bible Blog Battles is that so many people come on to this site and do exactly what they claim we are doing wrong. Its called hypocricy…but of course as long as its done within the confines of a Large Multi Site Charasmatic Church…it’s ok.
One thing I appreciate about Craig is that he is willing to say “If I am wrong then I will be judged for it”. There’s a real sense of humility in that. We may not have the answers…we may be misguided and deceived…but we BELIEVE that this is a big enough issue to take a stand on.
And by the way: Preaching The Prosperity Doctrine is Preaching Another Christ. Plain and Simple.
Feel free to disagree.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Alright dude. Sounds good.
Love ya.
Mark
November 20th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Actually JohnPaul, hypocrisy would be if I went and started yackin’ to other people about you and posting your comments and emails online for others to attack. That would be hypocrisy. I address Craig directly, and always have. As has Mark from what I can see.
No more arguing from me. I’m out.
Best Regards,
Derek
November 20th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
I think I’ll call you “Drive-by Derek”. Stop by, fling some mud…then out the door. Until next time my friend.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Clever. I like it. :-)
Take care guys,
Derek
November 20th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Just don’t start flinging feces. It’s one of the major things that seperates us from the animal kingdom.
November 21st, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Derek…
How about this for hypocricy:
Telling Mark that he should stop posting here because it is a waste of time and then not being able to resist it yourself.
Wow. Thats the 2nd hypocricy i’ve found of yours.
I could go on all night.
December 27th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
I find statements regarding how about how TCC treats those who disagree/question their doctrine completely believable. From personal experience, I can attest to how they will treat you like their best friend until they get the inkling that you are not ready to jump when they say. After that it’s to the curb. They have perhaps gotten better at this (not so blatant, perhaps) considering all the different cadre groups that they have created. However, being experienced with their core group of leaders, they certainly are more worried about surrounding themselves with people that are ready “be onboard” than they are with addressing the needs of their flock.